The Ground Floor Advantage: Emerging Tech in Resource Innovation

0:04 My name is Matthew Micklevore, a junior resource investing and I'll be your host for today's panel. Title is the Ground Floor Advantage, Emerging Technology and Resource Innovation. Before we really kind of get going, Please, as always, standard disclaimers all apply. Not investing advice and there will be 4 looking statements, I'm sure. Also, note, please, that this is being recorded and will be made available afterwards if you want to take a look. And finally, there will be a Q&A for investors or listeners here at the end. I encourage you please get your questions into the chat box. If I can fit it in sort of organically along the way I will. If not, I'll do my level best to make sure there's time at the end for all of your questions. But with that out of the way, I'll get going here. Mining and resource exploitation is an ancient industry and like any long tradition there can be resistance to change within it. However the world continues to explode with new technological innovations in every area including the mining and resource sector and they are not immune and they indeed must themselves evolve to survive and meet 21st century demands.

1:02 Innovation sort of has a twofold impact on the mining sector. On the one hand, emerging technologies require exponentially growing demand of all critical metals, which will shape future mining for generations and indeed our society itself. But on the other hand, technology can actually change mining itself, bringing in new and improved ways to utilize natural resources, minimize or eliminate previous costs to those resources as well, whether it be environmental destruction or extreme energy intensity.

1:27 I feel like both companies joining me today sit at the forefront of this change. Joining me today are Kirsten Brewer, CEO of Hydrograph, which is a technology company looking to lead the market in terms of clean and efficient graphene production. And then Julian Traeger, CEO of Kotech Holdings, which is a company dedicated to investing in and incubating emerging innovative technologies in the mining sector. Both of these, thank you, by the way, Kirsten and Julian, I'll pass this off to you both in a moment. Both of your companies, I think, require there's strong stories that just need a little bit of space to flesh out. So before we give you the floor to kind of give us the full kind of detailed rundown of what your companies are. Maybe I'll just ask you both to just start with a very classic you know 30,000 foot view elevator pitch 30-60 seconds here and maybe Kirsten I'll pass it off to you first there if that's okay.

2:14 Sure so we are a graphene producer and we produce graphene via detonation synthesis.

2:21 So literally we blow up hydrocarbon gases. We pump in acetylene and oxygen into a steel chamber. We ignite that gaseous mixture with a spark from an electrode. It destabilizes the molecules. The temperature shoots up to 2,500 Kelvin. And really all of the carbon that was in the acetylene becomes a crystalline graphene powder. So it's, of course, a gas phase reaction. There's no graphite required for the production of graphene. And we believe that it is the explosion that really gives us the purity and the consistency that we have. So we have a very scalable process.

2:56 It's pretty exciting to see the performance that we've had. We do believe we have the best performing material in the industry. And we think that it's again, the kind of simplicity of the system, at least theoretically, that we have this very, very crystalline, very high performing material.

3:13 Excellent, Kirsten. Thank you. And Julian, over to you. Thank you. That sounds super interesting, Kirsten, by the way. So, Kotech is a decade-long effective story where we are trying to invent an eBay or a Tesla for the mining sector. So we are trying to identify disruptive technologies. We've so far announced 4 of them. We're announcing another 2 or 3 shortly. But the next phase of the business is to apply those 2 assets particularly waste and recycling and to scale a 30 to 40 asset business over the decade, which is a 21st century new technologically driven mining company.

3:58 Excellent. And so, Julian, I'll hand it right back off to you. Why don't you now give us just a little bit of digging into this. You have a small family of technologies and projects under the Kotech name. Can you just maybe describe, you know, maybe some of your key projects or core assets?

4:12 Sure. I mean, it's quite a complicated story, Matthew. And over time, I think we will simplify it further. But so far, we've looked at over 400 technologies. We have the ex-head of Rio Ventures helping us, amongst others, to sift through those. And we've invested, as I said, in 4, and we're gonna announce another 2 shortly. And we've ended up mainly focused on new process technologies, much like Kirsten was describing, something which moves the industry forward. And those are now grouped under 3 different metal categories. So effectively, green iron ore, green copper, and rare earth magnet recycling. And as I said we've got those technologies and now we're moving into the asset phase.

5:02 So we have at the moment 2 iron ore projects and now we're building out a business in the US to ultimately supply 10% of the US's magnet needs. So it's a very interesting story. I think it's overdue and it's what the industry needs now. All these technologies are very interesting in that they're much lower cost, they're much more modular, they're much more flexible, they're much greener, they don't use so much heat, they don't use so much water. And it's a puzzle that the industry hasn't really adapted to them before, but there's enormous resistance amongst the sector who are already focused on health and safety and not doing new things unless they're absolutely forced to do so. And that creates an opportunity for us.

5:54 Excellent. No, thank you, Julian. So, Kirsten, sort of the same basic question over to you. Maybe can you just, as a sort of preliminary preamble, can you walk us through just, yeah, graphene and its importance, anticipated future, compound annual growth rate, and then maybe as you sort of did in your introduction,

6:11 provide us maybe a walkthrough of your process and what differentiates it from your competitors and most quickly then, I guess, the significance of that, if you don't mind. Sure. So graphene is the strongest and most conductive material that's ever been discovered. It is made of pure carbon atom so you can imagine it quite like graphite. Graphite is effectively billions and billions of these layers. And if you can isolate it, which they've done in Manchester in 2004, which is now the infamous scotch tape method. Researchers quite literally put a piece of scotch tape over and over on graphite until they isolated 1 atomic layer. And they found that as with all nanomaterials, it has superlative qualities. So I'd say that, you know, when you hear people say that it's stronger than steel, harder than a diamond, all of these things, I would say these are more theoretical limits.

6:58 I think that we get closer to those theoretical limits with every day that we engage in more graphene related research.

7:06 In terms of the compound annual growth rate, depending on the source, I think it's higher than 30%. I think that with any new material, we're really building the market. It's theoretically unlimited because graphene as a material additive, it can go in almost any material you think of, whether it's batteries, biosensors, carbon fiber, concrete, just a very, very small amount, often less than 1% can fundamentally alter another material by again improving that mechanical strength component or improving conductivity. It's very very exciting to be part of an industry that has so much potential demand and really a limitless future and to consider hydrographs differentiation it's again the explosion synthesis we have. Not only do we strongly feel we provably have the highest performing material in the industry, which is, I'll say just by luck. Our researchers were not looking to make graphene, they were studying aerosol gels and an experiment went in a different way than expected and Eureka, we had pristine graphene and that was discovered by Dr. Chris Sorensen at Kansas State University.

8:16 So Hydrograph's been involved in commercializing that technology.

8:20 And we're very, very different from the rest of the industry, as I'm sure everyone on this call is aware. Most graphene is derived from graphite. It's a very different process. If you think of, you know, how graphite's made with these layers of carbon, carbon wants to stick together. So you have to put so much energy and or chemicals into the system to really get those layers to release. So you have

8:44 imperfect layers. You have other molecules in there because it's a naturally occurring mineral, you have sulfur atoms, trace metals. So it's very difficult to process it to get to that pristine, perfect crystallinity that we're able to achieve in that one millisecond where we have the explosion take place, then because we're in explosion, we don't have any energy input or virtually no energy. It's of course an exothermic reaction.

9:12 And because of that as well, we don't have any waste. So every single thing is used in that system. We can also theoretically convert that heat into energy. Our byproduct, because of course the carbon is becoming graphene, and then the hydrogen and the oxygen has to go somewhere. So that becomes syngas, which is a commodity gas, and at scale will arrange an offtake agreement. So it's a beautiful system. You could compare this to other synthetic producers, most other graphene that's produced synthetically. So this would be your

9:47 lighten, your GMG, your Levidian. They're starting with methane and then they're gonna use a microwave plasma process. Methane kind of like graphite has natural impurities. It's not a synthetic gas. So you're putting it in a system where you have to put a ton of energy into to get that to release, to crack the methane and then create a powder. So I said a lot. I hope that that was all clear.

10:14 No, yeah. Excellent. Well, thank you, Kirsten. I think these are 2 very excellent and detailed stories, right? So it does take a little time to communicate that. Let's just step back. I mean, you've done a decent job of introducing us to your companies. Maybe step back more to almost like a reflective, not philosophical stance. But let's just maybe discussing investment criteria, right? I mean, what should investors keep in mind when evaluating early stage technology companies in the resource sector? It's kind of a, at first blush, might seem maybe a strange

10:44 combination when in fact it's not, but with resource sector investors, it might feel new for the same reasons, Julian, you talked about that degree of resistance. I think there just might be that you don't know what you don't know degree of fearfulness. But maybe can you help us overcome potential misunderstanding of an industry that is very slow to change and focuses on rocks, not the very old, which are rocks and geological formations, not the very new, which is to say kind of cutting edge technology. Maybe just help us, maybe what's a frame of reference or help us understand in the audience,

11:16 How can you help us get a sense of how to assess your company or your peers in terms of what you're offering as criticality, the value proposition? It's maybe a fairly large question, but hopefully there's room for both of you to maneuver. Julian, I'll let you start this one off. Sure. Well, at Kotec, myself and the other board members own roughly 70% of the company, even though it's listed. So we are investing effectively our own capital. And so when we look at a new technology, we really need to make sure that it works.

11:49 Like everything in life, the most important thing is people. You know, are they real? Are they too promotional? Is there substance? Because in the technology business, there are huge numbers of people making assertions and very few businesses end up being super successful. So you need to cut through all the nonsense to start off with. I think the other thing we've been looking at is where is the technology in the sort of TR system.

12:27 We're not interested in an invention. We're not interested in something that's working at lab scale. What we're interested in is helping businesses which have like a pilot plant stage, scaling, finding customers and becoming real. So we are not a university research bureau. We are already trying to commercialize businesses. And then within that, we're looking at businesses which have ability to really scale.

12:57 The aim for Kotec is to develop a multi-billion dollar business within a couple of years. The areas that we've chosen, which is iron ore, copper, and this magnet recycling are all large markets. So you could end up with a great invention, but it's super niche. So that really doesn't move the needle for us. We've really got to find something.

13:22 And then because nothing remains uninvented for a long period of time, you've really got to have an edge. You know, How do you differentiate yourselves from the peers? How much time advantage do you have versus the other people who are gonna start catching up with you? How good is your patent protection? Often it isn't the best product that wins. It's the one that's seized and most number and quickest to market. So it's all those things. It's all the normal investment lessons, but just applied to the technology space.

13:59 Excellent. And Kirshen, any thoughts or input or context you think might help an audience to understand what you're doing or how to understand it? Sure. I agree with a lot of the points Julian made. I think that for us, we're obviously a little bit different. We're, I would say, resource adjacent. And I think that really critically investors need to look at the science. So look at the patent. Does this company know what they're doing? If you ask them questions, can they really define it?

14:25 I think that that just asking why repeatedly can often shake out a lot of false statements that we know that companies like to claim. I think that if the science is sound and there's a real product, does the product perform? And again, unfortunately, there's a lot of misinformation. There's a lot of companies that claim a lot of things. Can they back it up? Is there third-party validation? Is there, Are there test results that they can share publicly?

14:50 Companies that have something real share a lot of information. I feel that companies that are kind of hiding what they have, they make statements and there's nothing behind it. You really have to dig and read the actual patent, read the actual lab results. And I think with all of that, the final step is really can it scale? And I think there's multiple components to scalability. Is it sound from an engineering perspective? Because some things can make sense in the lab and you're not going to be able to do that in a real world. You're especially not going to be able to do it cost effectively. So

15:23 can the company scale while maintaining their margins? And I think it goes without saying, I think management has to be sound. And I think investors should always look into management teams and make sure that all of these pieces are really combined because if they are, there should be huge market demand for a high-performing, patent-protected and scalable product. I mean, I would add 2 more things, Matt. Sorry, I forgot. One is the cost of the tech, the price of the technology. I mean, we've seen some technologies which made bold assumptions, raising capital at billions of dollars and ultimately not working. So, I mean, you can lose a lot of money if you enter at the wrong price.

16:08 So we really try and enter it at an attractive price because otherwise, even if it's the best thing since sliced bread, You may only just make your money back. And the other thing is, you know, the actual product. Is it gonna be a valuable product? I think graphene is fantastic. We're like great fans of that.

16:27 But, you know, the world is changing very quickly. What was a critical mineral 3 years ago is not necessarily critical today. We've seen the market being flooded with lithium and nickel and cobalt and vanadium, and there doesn't seem to be any great shortage of those. And, you know, with the pricing having collapsed in those commodities, the cost structure has really changed for the industry. So you've got to try and find something which is sustainably interesting, critical, and where there's going to be a lot of growth, as Kirsten was mentioning in the graphene space. Sorry, I'm advertising for you today. No, I appreciate it. I would actually add to that, that early days there were some high-performing graphenes, but they were just so expensive that customers weren't willing to use them. And I think now we have this flood of kind of cheap graphene in the market, but it doesn't perform as well. And so I caution investors to look at the full story because, for example, Hydrograph, we're not the cheapest graphene per ton.

17:36 There are cheaper graphenes like I think Nano Explorer and a lot of the other companies that people would know. But you use so much less of our graphene that when you actually average it for performance and cost and the output that we deliver for the customer, the pain points, the multiple pain points that we solve, we are the

17:55 most cost effective. So it's always complicated, you know, how much material they can reduce because we've so greatly improved the strength. If we're solving critical issues and we're, you know, reducing shipping costs, etc. You can imagine how these value systems kind of stack up for the customer. So again, I think with new technologies, quality is always going to trump volume. Well put. I find it interesting that there's always just a certain universal axioms, right? I think both of you said, I mean, it comes down to the people, right? That doesn't matter what the company is or the idea. You have to have the right team, the right people behind it. That's one that really resonates with me constantly. Well, I'm gonna, this is a half step aside and I apologize, this is me asking it because I'm the panelist or the host and I wanna ask this question because I always, this is important to me. So I guess you just have to deal with it to a certain degree but valuation metrics, right? I mean, as someone who I

18:49 immersed in the resource space, you know, PNAV and EV per ounce, and then there are certain valuation metrics that, you know, if you invest in the resource space, these are what you use, right? And, you know, it's different stages of a company as they progress towards a production or construction decision. So my question then to you is, if you assume that there are people here that are kind of sitting in the same space as I am and wanting to understand the metrics with which to interpret you, I mean, Are there, I guess, what is your peer group or what's the financial metric or ratio, rather, pardon me, that you think is something that people should focus on? I mean, can you help people? How should people be assessing?

19:26 I mean, both of you are on the verge of serious revenue growth and your revenue models are towards that still has potential. So we'll get to that. But just, yeah, in terms of that, where, you know, aspirationally, what sector do you want to be in and how should people be valuating that sector, I suppose? And I think I've lost track of who I, taking turns here, starting first. Kirsten, I'll let you go first here if that's all right. Sure, so I consider Hydrograph, you know, an advanced materials, pure technology company. So being pre-revenue, of course, don't look at our price to earnings ratio. It's not going to be impressive. But I think that, you know, it's hard. I think that we're so different from the rest of the industry. I'm hesitating to have people compare us to different competitors. And even with that said, I don't really view other graphing companies as competitors. I think with any new material, it's better for adoption to take place than to be the only one. That's often a very difficult road to take alone. I think probably the best way to view it would be enterprise value to revenue.

20:27 And I think that with other technology companies, you can obviously see multiples of revenue for value.

20:34 I think that, you know, as we look towards our revenue projections for this year, and of course in 2026, it's always, we're in that stage that's a little bit hard to tell what someone's worth, of course. But as we start delivering on those milestones, I think some of these other metrics become more and more obvious. Well, that discovery stage is exciting too, right? Precisely that price discovery. And Julian, yourself, I mean, yeah, there are similarities but also differences between Hydrograph and Kotech. What are your thoughts on how people should be trying to assess an actual tangible, quantifiable sort of valuation model for Kotech? Well, I think, you know, for Kotech, because we're really trying to invent like a category, they aren't real peers. I mean, we started like a VC incubator and now we're moving into a resource operator role. So it is morphing as they did when they had their software and their code and then they started to become a physical business. So we're on a journey, which I think people, particularly in Silicon Valley, can appreciate.

21:38 But at the moment, because of that complex structure, the best metric for us is the sum of the parts of the various pieces that we have, because we have investments in technologies, those investments are going up in value, but we also have now effectively mining projects which have feasibility studies and discounted cash flow valuations. At the moment, we trade at a fraction of the sum of the parts. The value would be many multiples of the current share price. And we're just starting, which is why I mentioned that our long-term aim is to create, you know, these verticals in these large commodity opportunities, each of which could be several billion dollars. So that's the 10-year goal.

22:25 No, wonderful. And so maybe, you know, there's a good sort of segue right there, right? Let's speak, maybe the two-part question, The first part might be just the fact that it remains fledgling. But I think both of you, if I'm not mistaken, are kind of at or approaching pilot plant stage or that sort of proof of concept potential for production. But maybe could you walk us through, I mean, yeah, rubber hits the road, revenue modeling, your potential for that. I mean, again, same thing that, you know, in the mining space, M&A is kind of your only real happy ending 95% of the time. This is obviously the chance for an actual business to be created here. So on the one hand, maybe short term, is there a potential for revenue? It's not, of course, sustained revenue, but just as a proof of concept. And then speaking more to Blue Sky, which is probably more of note or more of interest in this conversation.

23:17 What is your blue sky economics, your margins?

23:20 Can you kind of feed that back to me a little bit and tell me about that? And Julian, I'll let you take this one first. Sure. So we are a more complicated model than Hydrograph. So we have ultimately, our great advantage is that compared to traditional mining, which takes 15 to 20 years from the discovery of a deposit to coming into production, with our technologies and with our focus on recycling and waste, which is really where we're going to apply these technologies in the first instance, we think we can produce revenues like in 3 years, starting late next year from our most advanced project, which in the mining sector is actually super rapid. So we're operating, but it doesn't sound like it, what feels like warp speed in the mining sector.

24:22 And each of these particular assets will then have the ability to be listed. I mean, what we're planning to do is to have a series of iron or waste recycling facilities using our technologies, a series of copper waste heat bleaching opportunities using the technologies. Our magnet recycling business, which could produce, as I said, 10% of the U.S.'s needs, will probably have a separate listing. The technologies themselves, as I mentioned, are growing in value. Some of them will be listed. So those could be spun off to our shareholders in the form of additional dividends. So we have a variety of ways in which we are creating value and how we deliver that value to our shareholder base.

25:16 Thank you, Julian. And Kirsten, your thoughts? Sure. So I think that, you know, being pre-revenue, it's always difficult to tell what the timing is going to be or what exact figures are. So maybe it's better if I can kind of explain our process and our pipeline. So throughout 2025, 1 of our largest goals is really securing access to our primary feedstock and showing to customers that we have an unlimited capacity to produce. And then to speak to our commercial pipeline, we're speaking with about 50 customers and these are very active discussions, probably between 10 and 15 have large active projects where we're consistently engaging with their scientists. Some companies are naturally more private and we don't have that level of interaction.

26:02 But if we're looking at volume, so our selling price for 1 tonne of Graphene is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. So between 5 and 7 of these 50 customers are looking for fully commercialised thousands of metric tonnes of Graphene annually. So these are potentially truly massive in scale. And of course, it goes without saying, it's a gradual ramp up to get to that stage. It's not that they order a thousand tons on day 1. I would say that likely the average customer is looking for tens or hundreds of tons. So you can imagine that for a small company like us, I think our market cap is 80 million Canadian today. Just one of these happening would make us a fundamentally different company. So it's a very, very exciting place to be. We do expect to sign our first large commercial agreement this year, likely towards the end of this year.

26:57 But again, there's so many on the go and it's moving so quickly now that it's difficult to tell really which one it's going to be and what's going to be required. But we're very, very confident that if it's not 1, it will be multiple and they're very near term. Excellent. I might actually still step back now and again, ask you more of a personal reflective question just on your own experiences within the sector. And so Julian, or rather, no, Kirsten, I'll make sure I'm trying to stay level and honest here. Maybe could you just discuss how your own background, I mean, just reading through a brief blurb on you, right, you have a decade of experience in machine learning and data analytics. Is there a direct applicability to Hydrograph of that, or is it a direct or critical application, or is it more just a matter of experience and knowledge building your abilities to operate and execute?

27:48 I think that's a good question. So to clarify, machine learning and data analytics was a part of the 10 years, not the overwhelming majority of it. So I would say the most applicable, I have a master's in material science and engineering that is directly related, of course, to Hydrograph as a nanotechnology company. I've been with Hydrograph. This is now, I think, my sixth year. But I think going back to your original question on machine learning and data analytics, I have a very surprising data-driven approach to leading Hydrograph. I think that without data, you don't understand your product. You can kind of imagine graphene without application development data really proving to a customer what this material can do and why they should take you seriously is kind of like trying to sell a computer without turning it on. So that was really my first step was engaging in a lot of application development.

28:40 So you have a very strong value proposition to the customer and the problems that you can solve. You have better information on pricing because you have a much stronger argument. And I think that that's just one example, but I think that mindset bleeds into the entire company. No, excellent. Thank you. And Julian, sort of similar but tailored to yourself, I mean, you have experience, and this is something I've listened to you speak on before, right? That you led or are involved in turning Anglo-Pacific group from coal to battery-focused streaming. And so, I mean, you've done this transition before. And so based on that experience, key lessons that you can share about what it takes to actually successfully pivot industries towards, out with the old and with the new and towards the emerging technologies? Yeah, I mean, I've always been interested in, trying to create the future and trying to capture a first mover advantage and getting into an area before the crowd and at the right price. And I think, you know, these technologies generally have been struggling to scale, been struggling, I mean, there's lots of great inventions, but particularly in the UK, there's not a universe of companies to support them to grow.

29:57 And so there's that opportunity. And the other opportunity I've noticed is the fact that, you know, there are huge numbers of waste sites in the West, you know, 10,000 in Canada alone, 15,000 in Queensland, with enormous amounts of valuable raw materials, and technology can help us unlock those and actually rehabilitate them. Because I think that the rehabilitation of previously mined sites is a key way in which our sector can redeem itself in the view of the general investing public. I'm very concerned about the disparity that's developed recently between the strategic importance of our sector and graphene is very important from a strategic and defence viewpoint.

30:51 But the perception of the public is not that we are super important and we need to be a growth industry that's very highly rated. So I think the recycling angle benefits us. And I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I've been investing in the sector for 20 years. We invested around 600 million. We turned it into 3 billion. And I think this is the next thing, but you've got to be patient. And it's a lonely business trying to create something, but eventually the world will catch up with us. Overnight success, 10 years in the making, as they say. Well, so those are, we've come to the end of the questions I have planned. I'll kind of just do one more plug. There are half a dozen questions here for you 2 in the chat. I'll just give a plug here for, make sure to get them in here if you do want them to be asked. And so, yeah, if you're okay with this, we'll jump into the more interactive portion of this. And maybe, Julian, just a couple, I'll start with you, a couple of questions. Maybe can you provide a little bit more info on SIBO, what percentage shareholding and specifically, what percentage shareholding does Kotec have in it?

32:02 Right. Well, Sibo is a very interesting technology which can unlock very low-grade copper deposits in a way which we haven't seen before. Now, Again, there have been a few technologies which have been widely trumpeted at huge valuations which aren't making the progress which we're seeing at Sabre. And recently, Sabre was also mandated to work with Glencore which was a great tick for them. So we're super interested in the business. We only own a couple of percent of Sabre, but what we can do and what we're very excited to bring to Sabre is the breadth of our global network of mining companies and entrepreneurs. So we already have identified 4 different mines in, sorry, I've got a dog barking in the background here, 4 different mines in Australia and in the US and Canada which can take and are testing the SABO technology.

33:09 And as I said, our aim is to take SABO to 10 or 12 different old copper mines, old waste sites and then create a business around it. And we also are close, shortly going to announce a new technology, which is a pretreatment for SABO as well. Excellent. And we'll head over to 1 for you here, Kirsten. Are there more Hyperions currently being produced? And if so, how many more, or any other kind of context you can provide to help answer that question? Yes. So I think it's worthwhile just reiterating that because we're modular, we can scale with customer demand. So we are planning a very large facility that we will soon announce the location of. And so this will have a minimum of 5 units, but we are also looking at redesigns and making the capacity quite a bit larger than what we've also previously disclosed. So as you can imagine with the revenue projections, this could scale very, very rapidly after that.

34:14 And we'll ensure that that new facility is going to have ample space for additional Hyperion units. Excellent. Julian, how far have you got with seeking finance for HyperMag US, including government funding opportunities? So HyperMag is one of our more interesting businesses. This is the magnet recycling business that we talked about, which is super important to the US because these magnets are used in AI, in robotics, also in obviously defense applications. We are planning on, and we've identified a site in Texas, so probably not too far from HydroGro, where we would create our first hub with spokes on both coasts.

35:06 And we are in an application process with the US government on multiple fronts for those. And I think the US understands the importance of this, potentially, you know, the Chinese could cut off the supply of magnets to the US, and that would really limit the ability to scale, for instance, AI, which is clearly becoming weaponized as we speak. And so we're very hopeful that this business can be developed quite quickly. The aim would be to bring it into production late next year. Once we've sorted out how much government funding we will receive, then we can work out how much equity we need and how much project financing. So it's 1 step at a time, but in the meantime, we're doing the detailed engineering work and like Kirsten speaking to feedstock providers, so we have the feed, there's no shortage of offtakers, but we need to do that. And it's super interesting. We actually are focusing initially on hard disk drives And we need to basically extract the magnets just before they get shredded by the e-waste people. So those are our, that's ended up being our customer base.

36:26 The people who do the e-waste, but the shredding, we need to take out the drives just before that phase. But it's an interesting area. And I think it will help the West be independent and be able to operate on its own, with its own resources. Fair warning, the questions are starting to pour in here. So we've got a few lined up. I'm assuming this one is for Kirsten. I would like to understand your feedstock requirements, Richard's asking, if you can provide any help with that one. Sure, So we do have everything patented for hydrocarbons. So we can explode any hydrocarbon that's fully patent protected. But our favorite is acetylene. And why we like acetylene, the formula is just C2H2.

37:14 It's a synthetic gas. There's no other contaminants or impurities that can find its way into our final material. And most of you would know is a welding gas, so it's highly volatile. It does not take a lot to get acetylene to react and really because of that reactivity when we pump it in with oxygen, which is obviously, you know, strengthening the ultimate explosion, we do believe that it is that combination, which gives us the performance in the graphene that we have. I'll come right back to you, Kirsten. That was a fairly quick one. For HydroGraph, Can we hear about some of the results with tactical fibers and has a site been chosen for that first distribution center? I think that second part you've already touched on, but yeah, can you discuss about the results with tactical fibers? Yes, so We will disclose the final location quite soon. Tactical fibers, I have to be cautious of what's confidential, but we have very, very strong strength improvements, double-digit strength improvements.

38:16 And so we have performed tests on everything from your nylon PA6 fibers to PEAK. I would say this is probably the fastest growing area for hydrograph apart from you know polypropylene or PET. Everyone from chemical companies, defense contractors, automotive companies, it can be used for fuel lines. There's a overwhelming amount of interest in our engineering fibers. And then Julian, this one's from Peter. You just, you know, you mentioned 2 new technologies that could be announced in the coming months, obviously kind of similar perspective from Kirshen, you can't disclose material non-public information, but can you just provide anything you can about those emerging 2 new technologies?

39:06 So yeah, I think the technologies we are looking at are aligned with our other processes. So the one is a concentration technology where we're gonna have the rights to both iron ore and manganese. And that helps other technologies like, you know, we have the cold pelletizing technology, which will help also for making green steel. And the other one is a pretreatment technology for the Sabre copper leaching technology. So those are the ones, the moment we're looking at, building a broader technology chain, which is complimentary in terms of the verticals that we are working on. But that doesn't mean that we are not opportunistic.

39:53 And if something else comes along, you know, for instance, something which could like de-radiate nuclear waste, then we would obviously look at those. There are certain big areas, you know, useful end products for sequestered carbon would be another one, where we're thinking, you know, there are big opportunities and we're looking for people to solve those also treating red mud. So there are a couple of big things which haven't been solved yet. And we would look at those too. And then Javier actually has a good one here. I won't claim it for my own, but I wish I had kind of thing. Can you please explain the capital or debt or funding needs of both companies at present?

40:41 And I guess, yeah, Kirsten, I'll ask that of you and then Julian, follow up. Sure. This is always a complicated question. I think that, so we completed a funding round with Haywood and Power 1, really leading that in December for 3.8 million Canadian. That was at 16 cents of the 24 cent half warrant. Right now we have about $10 million of Canadian dollars of warrants that we should see come in that are already in the money throughout 2025. And those have expiry dates of April and September. So that is, I think, pretty expected. There's an additional 10 million Canadian that could come in through 2026. I would say that that is enough for us, but we always wanna move faster. So if there's, I think as we start to deliver on milestones, we're going to be able to have access to more creative methods of funding the company.

41:34 So definitely still require a little bit of additional capital for this much larger facility. I mean, our CapEx requirements are very low and we're very efficient in our use of capital, but this is plenty for the year. As it de-risks your opportunities and avenues for funding grows in front of you, right? So absolutely. Julian, yourself on that one? Yeah, I mean, Kotec is being largely funded from my interest at the moment. And so we don't have any particular funding pressures. But we are going to be using a model which limits dilution at the holding company level. And we are looking at various partnerships at the underlying subsidiary level. So there are some people who are very interested in investing in the scalability of recycled green steel or green copper.

42:27 And equally there are lots of people interested in the magnet business. So that's where we're going to be raising capital at significant valuations while we keep the holding company more tight. But all of the areas, and I'm sure you're looking at this too, Kirsten, are areas where there's now government funding available because of the strategic nature of our industry, you know, the public markets aren't as deep as they used to be. But the strategic import of what we're doing is becoming greater and greater. And so in all our asset opportunities, first of all, we're exploring the ability to get government funding.

43:13 You know, we are doing a recycling project in Quebec. There's some opportunities there. We're looking at another mine startup in Minnesota again. So we need to solve for that first before we work out what the additional capital requirements may be. Okay, there's a couple of questions here that I'm going to try to synthesize here, mostly just regarding tariffs and, of course, this emerging potential trade war that we see sort of starting up here. I guess the positive and negative to both of you, and Julian, I'll ask you this first, but have you seen any, you know, on the one side increased interest or have the tariffs fundamentally, let me just simplify it, positively or negatively, is there positive or negative potential impact of the tariff trade war as it potentially exists on your organizations or your companies, Julian?

44:03 Well, I think, you know, for us, it's actually quite positive. I've always said, well, for the last couple of years when the writing was on the wall, that it's better to be in the fortress than outside. And so Our big assets are in the US, although we are listed in Canada. So there's a whole currency benefit for having the running costs of the head office in Vancouver with the Canadian dollar not strengthening and then having your assets in the US. And I think that that's very important. You know, we've always been, I've always been very, very nervous about country risk. And I think the US is the lowest risk jurisdiction to be in at the moment, just in light of what's going on. But the whole tariff thing is slightly chaotic, and it is a problem for the industry as a whole, which is a long-term industry where you're making commitments for like 10 years, 15 years to work out how you should strategize given the fact that tariffs can be changing literally overnight in some countries. It is, we need stability in our sector. But I think it's good for Kotech.

45:16 We're very similar. I mean, we're a Canadian public company, but our operational base is in the US as are most of our team members. And I think that, you know, all of our components for every reactor that's fully produced in the US, it was actually invented by Dr. Chris Sorensen, a Vietnam vet. It's a beautiful story to maintain manufacturing in the US and I think that as we grow we will maintain, you know, US manufacturing. I'm sure there will be some negative effects with the tariffs at some point in the future, but right now we do feel that there will be a huge amount of assistance, and especially with how graphene, I believe, will start to be more and more recognized as a critical material. You know, we've not only had a lot of interest from the US military. We've been working with them for, I guess, almost a year now.

46:05 I think that area is going to grow more and more within defense, national security, and of course, just American manufacturing in general. So we are near the end now, maybe just 2 or 3 more here. But so Kirsten, one more for you on the hot seat, both of you here. Hydrograph, is your process and production plan to be automated at all? And what kind of capacity increases might we see with a piped in feedstock? I like this question. Yes, so we are looking at doubling the capacity for a very minimal, well, let's say moderate increase to the CapEx costs, but this is going to not only improve our efficiency, our flow rates from an engineering perspective, we're going to see a huge amount of improvements.

46:53 And yes, we are very focused on automating. We have a new system that we'll be implementing within the next year, year and a half. So it will all be, you know, robotics, computer controlled. It is already computer controlled, but we will continue to advance that system further. Okay. And then Julian, there's another question here that I think you've already answered, but the question fundamentally revolves around if you're also seeking funding, government funding from non-USA jurisdictions. You mentioned Quebec, and so you think you sort of answered that, but I'll let you just know that so if there's more you want to add to that. But they'll find maybe the final general question, and maybe we'll put a capstone on it with this is, just again, it kind of goes back to proper entry points. And both of you talk about being early and that nature of timing it and being first mover, but an aggressive mover and making sure that you are able to establish your toehold.

47:46 From an investing perspective, when do you think, this will be a how many angels can dance on the head of a pin sort of thing, but when do you think is the best time to get the technologies, when does that revaluation that all investors want, When does that typically happen in these pre-revenue proof of concept companies or technology companies? Can you discuss maybe when do you see that sort of critical mass or tipping point that you think is due for yourself or in general, I suppose? And maybe Julian I'll let you do that one. Okay. So, first of all, on the government funding, we also have interests in a magnet recycling business in Germany, which has got some EU funding. If we do develop these copper recycling opportunities in Australia, Similarly, there are programs for critical minerals in Australia.

48:38 I just think that the access to government financing is gonna be a interesting and permanent feature of our sector going forward. And thank goodness, because without that, the critical aspect of our business will not be able to be moved forward in the way that the world needs. But going back to your other question, which was about the pricing, was it, of the technologies. There are so many different trigger points. I think if something is cheap, you buy it, and then it will, you know, the life will sort itself out. I mean, in our case, getting any government grant would be very important. Announcing different feeds, you know, feasibility studies, investors, there are multiple catalysts. I'm sure it's the same for HydroGrav.

49:34 You don't quite know when they're going to come. But if you believe in the long term story, you believe in the team, then there's no time like the present, because timing the market around announcements, if you're not an insider, is very, very, very difficult. So if you see something that makes sense, you should take advantage of it and believe that the guards will sort it out in due course. And Kirsten, your thoughts on if and when that kind of a critical mass achieves to spur that catalyst for revaluation? Right. So inherently difficult to predict, but I agree with a lot of what Julian was saying. I think that for us, really what we're looking towards is this year, we're going to have a number of larger purchase orders come through, engineering revenue that are tied to these industrial scale-ups.

50:27 And so we should kind of bring that pipeline that we have to life, even if we can't disclose the customer names that we're working with. And timed with what we believe is going to come in towards the end of this year, we want to list on NASDAQ. And I think that if that is very well timed, we should really take off by the end of the year, if not absolutely beginning of next year. And so, again, I think we're very undervalued now and I hope to continue to deliver on our milestones, but we should be a very different company quite soon. OK, well said, and I believe that brings us to the end of this panel. So Kirsten Brewer of Hydrograph and Julian Trager of Kotec Holdings, thank you for your time. It was an enlightening conversation and I wish you good luck and we'll speak again soon, I'm sure. Thank you