Hydrogen Capital Growth (Frankfurt:65U) — Q4 2024 NAV & Portfolio Update

0:00 Good morning, and welcome to the Hydrogen One Capital Growth PLC Investor Presentation, and apologies for the slight delay in starting the meeting today. Throughout this recorded meeting, investors will be in listen only mode. Questions are encouraged, they can be submitted at any time just by using the Q and A tab that is situated on the right hand corner of screen. Simply type in your questions and press send. The company may not be in a position to answer every question it received during the meeting itself. Have the company can read all the questions submitted today and publish responses where it's appropriate to do so. Before we begin, I'd like to submit the following poll. I'd now like to hand you over to doctor JJ Trainer. Good morning, Shisel. Good morning. Thanks for joining the the webcast this morning, and apologies for the for the delayed start. We haven't seen technical issues. So I'm JJ Trainer, one of the managing partners of HYDROGEN ONE, and joined by Richard Health. Morning, Richard. Hi. Good morning, Richard. Also a managing partner in the firm. We'll take you through the fourth quarter results and the portfolio and and as always plenty of time for your for your q and a.

0:58 The disclaimer statement. So look, here's the agenda for for the call. I'll take you through the results, then Richard will will deep dive into the portfolio. And as I say, we'll come back for for for the q and a at the end of end of the session. Just in terms of a of a summary of the quarter, NAV per share is now just over 90p per share, and that's lower than third quarter twenty twenty four and lower than a year ago. NAV is now sitting at a £116,000,000 in in total. This results, this NAV includes a reduction of 8.4p per share or £11,000,000 for the write down of HH2E, which is an event that we announced in in November 2024. So there's nothing new in terms of the the HH2E numbers. We're we're really just doing the bookkeeping here for the announcements that were made in November of last year. The figures also include the exit from Gen two Energy, which was announced with our third quarter results.

1:59 Looking at the remainder of the portfolio, we saw a resumption in financial growth. Good to see that portfolio revenues up 11% year over year to just over £85,000,000 and there's continued momentum in the in the portfolio, which which we'll talk about in a moment. Cash now sitting at just over £3,000,000 at the end of the quarter. And I'm pleased to confirm that the investment adviser is in the process of being sold to Cordient, which brings enhanced capabilities for for us as an investment adviser and and we think better access to markets for our for our our investors. A summary of the fund. Six private positions in the portfolio, concentrated portfolio, high conviction positions where we're investing well, revenue generating supply chain companies.

2:48 We like to co invest with strategic industrials and other institutions. We we look for diversity in the portfolio. It means global allocation across the full value chain. And, And of course, we look for clear exit strategies from these companies through IPOs or trade sales to to generate cash and and now back back for our investors. Turning to the financial highlights for the quarter, we use IPEV guidelines, so very standards, very rigorous valuation guidelines, IPEV guidelines to value all of the the portfolio on a quarterly basis, which is reviewed and approved by our board once per quarter and and reviewed by our auditor at KPMG on an annual basis.

3:33 Our portfolio weighted average discount rate at the end of last year, so 12/31/2024 was 12.8%. That's higher than the 09/30/2024, which was which was 12.5% and that discount rate effect has taken 2.4p per share out of the NAV. Cash holdings at the end of December £3,000,000 just over £3,000,000 following the divestment from GENTU Energy. The divestments and secondary is expected to continue to fund working capital requirements in the company and potentially some fresh investments. This slide shows portfolio NAV portfolio movements in a bit more detail as you can see where we were at Q3, where where we are at the end of Q4.

4:23 You can see fairly steady valuations in in most in most positions with the write off of HH2E clearly in those numbers and the exit from Gen two Energy. So going from from September 30 to to December 31 with the the Gen two proceeds reappearing as as as cash in in in the books. This chart just shows the moving parts of the world... Results in a little bit more detail. On the left hand side of the slide, you're seeing the NAV movements in q four twenty twenty four versus q three twenty twenty four on a pence per share basis. And the main movement in the numbers was the write off of HH2E, which took away 8.4p per share. Now as I say, this was a reduction that was announced in November 2024.

5:11 Now HH2E entered self administration at the end of last year following delays to its series b funding rounds. So the funding round that was underway in the business and following a decision by the major shareholder in h h two e foresight to hold further funding for the business. And and those two those two things together resulted in HHG going into self administration. We don't unfortunately expect recovery, financial recovery for our shareholders in that administration process. There's more information on this set out for you in the RNS that we put out this morning and in the updates that we released in late twenty twenty four. Elsewhere in the portfolio, we saw a small decline in holding values for portfolio companies from Q3 to Q4, a raise of results of higher discount rates with positive portfolio effects and offset, of course, from fund costs, all of that totaling around 2p per share, leaving the NAV per share at 19p per share.

6:11 So that's where we are on the results. Richard, over to you on the portfolio.

6:16 Thanks, JJ. So what I'm gonna do is take us through a little bit more detail on the fund, talk about accordion as well, another key part of of our news play over the the the last period and then forward into this year, and then then sort of sort of final conclusion. So summary of the funds, where do we invest in a sort of a breakdown by percentage? Private assets of course dominate 99% with a remainder in 3,000,000 cash as JJ mentioned. Invested into revenue generating supply chain companies, 60% in The EU, as you can see there on the doughnut chart, and The UK, 40% with high weighting in the cash generating companies, Sunfire, HYDROCK, and Elcogen, as you can see just there.

7:09 Just a reminder of the other co investors with us in in these companies. I guess a key part of of HH two is there was only a single investor. So we'd like to reassure investors about, you know, the the sort of portfolio effect of of other shareholders and the other companies in the fund from, you know, Strom at the top, you know, down through Sunfire, HYDROCK, Bramble, Elcogen. One of the things that that we... We've been doing is is trying to highlight what else are those other investors who invested into the... Into those companies doing with us. So you can see the investors on on on the on the right hand side there, and we're sort of showcasing what Safran is doing. Safran is a co investor with Cranford Air... Aerospace.

7:56 This is sort of showcase for liquid hydrogen and shows what they've been doing on their Grenoble Tech campus in France, which sort of indirectly cross fertilizes into what we're doing with Cranfield as well using liquid hydrogen and developing the infrastructure for for that hydrogen and proving that it can work in a in a gas turbine engine. So it's it's very interesting to see what other people are doing, and we'll update in the next quarter with one of our investors. Some key news flow, the autumn news flow sort of captured here. I'm not gonna go through every single one, but just on the highlights. Bramble met a significant power density milestone, making more compact and cheaper PCB based fuel cells that will find great traction in the tier one auto sector and more of that later this year.

8:53 Gen two, we disposed of at NAV, sort of a small amount of money, but a key point about realizing value at at NAV, and we should consider that when reading through to the rest of the portfolio. Another touch point from HYDROWTH working with CEMEX on-site and rugby deployed the thermal plasma unit there on-site. A real example of a of a real technology coming off of the the drawing board and and finding a real sort of practical applications. H h two e, JJ mentioned. We can talk about that more at the end if you like. And then Elkigen received €5,000,000 and Sunfire, €200,000,000 more funding at the end of the year there, showing that there is still widespread support for the for the hydrogen sector outside of ourselves as as an investor.

9:47 Just thought we would show you a bit more about about HYDROC. The process on the left hand side there, this is an interesting play on perhaps what what what might be regarded more as an energy transition play rather than a pure green hydrogen play because what HYDROC are doing is is using gas plasma electrolysis to split methane into carbon and hydrogen. And you can see on this... On the site there, we're trying to show you real applications with cranes and lifting gear, putting this technology in place to start working in this case with with with with CEMEX to... Because the... This application, there's a there's a lot of methane being used in the cement, the steel sector, and energy storage and management, and that's that's demonstrating great application for what HYDROC do.

10:39 There was a recent investment from a US gas company, which hopefully sees the the market in The US open up for this sort of technology. The runtime of the units is is now only restricted by the carbon handling capability. You produce five times as much carbon as you do hydrogen in in this process. So you can see that in the brick test unit on the right hand side there. And that... So that's HYDROC. As as JJ mentioned, we want to do... Renew the focus on the remaining parts of the portfolio and to and to to really highlight the revenue generating capability within these companies. On the left, revenue growth since the original investment has been pretty good. Even the later investments like Stroam have have grown their revenues by by four times, and the early investments of of Sunfire and Bramble are up there

11:35 on the top top right. And a turnaround back on the trend for portfolio companies, the supply chain storage playing a role in the sector from control systems to... Although through through the the whole value chain. On a 100% basis, the portfolio revenues on the right hand side there recovered to 85,000,000 in revenues in the in the last part from the equivalent period in 02/2023.

12:05 I think what we had experienced previously is a slow slowdown in the supply chain for the components that were going into the sector where there was high demand and there was sort of a revenue slowdown because of that, not because there wasn't demand, but because there just wasn't enough

12:23 material to go into the into the process. Just... We need to mention accordion. Corning Capital has agreed to purchase the company's advisers. That's that's us, JJ, myself, and the rest of the team as the adviser to to the the PLC. Cordion is a specialist global infrastructure investor into real assets with 4,000,000,000 of assets under management worldwide. Like us, share the vision for hydrogen, see hydrogen as as a as a great growth growth plan, a great growth sector. So this is a a very good sanction of what what what would... A very good backing of what what we're doing here in the hydrogen sector. The the transaction, we we expect to to accelerate our access to to markets, to to private capital, to more capabilities compared to the stand alone strategy that we were pursuing previously.

13:19 The the current team from the investment adviser, our team, will become part of Cordian when we complete this transaction in the coming weeks and days and continue to provide the investment adviser services to HGEN, the PLC. And as I said, the completion is expected imminently with this this transaction. It's it's great for us us to have someone like HKDROGEN sharing the vision of seeing the upside in the hydrogen market that we expect to realize going forward. So I'll just round round off there just a summary of the the NAV of 90 compared to our share price in the twenties. We clearly think there's mispriced at this level. We've already demonstrated that we can sell assets at at NAV with with Gen two, and we expect to go on doing that in... Into the following year.

14:10 3,000,000 in cash supports the the ongoing operations, and we expect to better cut costs with Accordion because a lot of the services that we're paying for will go in house at Accordion. So we immediately see a cost cost reduction benefit in in working with Accordion and and then others to come. This is a revenue generating portfolio in hydrogen. It's not about hydrogen in the future. It's about hydrogen investing now to companies that are growing now. We're well positioned to provide energy security through the hydrogen sector in Europe and other regions where clean air and energy efficiency are a priority. And so I'd like to draw the presentation to a conclusion now and get into the q and a in a moment. Thank you very much.

14:59 Perfect. JJ Richard, thank you very much for presentation. Ladies and gentlemen, please do continue to submit your questions, and you can do that just based on the q and a tab that's situated on the top right hand corner of your screen. But just while the company take a few moments for you the questions that have been submitted today, I'd like to remind you that recording of this presentation along with a copy of the slides and the published q and a can be accessed via your investor dashboard. As you can see, we have received a number of questions throughout today's presentation. And Richard, if I could just hand over to you to read out those questions, that'd great, and I'll pick up from you at the end. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. So the first question is, how do the managers propose to narrow the discount to to NAV? Surely, any monetizations are better used in a share per share buyback instantly being accretive to shareholder value rather than reinvesting in HYDROGEN assets, which trade at such a huge discount to book.

15:45 Let me have a go at that one first of all. I I I think, really,

15:51 we... The fact that HYDROGEN assets are are so cheap at the moment would would mean that if we did generate cash, we we would want to invest that back into the the the the hydrogen sector. And we we really have to demonstrate that the... These assets have got value that is way above the current share price, we intend to do that as we move into 2025 with Cordian by working with other investors

16:17 on the same same assets, and we think that's gonna be a solution. JJ, do wanna add to that while I... Yeah. I mean, just just to add, mean, the way the fund was designed was was and is is a growth proposition. So so the natural first use of of of divestment proceeds is is reinvestment in growth propositions. Having said that, we do have the facility for a share buyback that's clearly set out in the prospectus,

16:44 which which, you know, which we'll just put out when we did did the IPO. And and and as and when cash proceeds arrive, then the board at that time will want to take a view as to the appropriate allocation of that cash. JJ, next question. Your NAV has declined from around a 100 to around 20 in five years. Why should I invest? Do you wanna take that? Let let me have a go. I understand the question. I think just to just... And thanks thanks for asking the question. Just to just to calibrate on the numbers, the the NAV IPO was the IPO proceeds, which was a £103,000,000.

17:19 And the NAV today is a £116,000,000. So so the the the the the the underlying assets of the business have actually grown since since the IPO from that $10.03 number to to the $11.06 number that that I just just described. The share price at IPO was a was was a was a pound per share. And it is now... The share price is now deteriorated to the $20.25 p range that we've been trading in trading in recently. So I think there are two two different sets of numbers in here. There there there is a there is a a disconnect here between what we see as as as a as a steady progression of of of of the NAV of the business with ups and downs because of it because of the the the h h two effect that we described because of discount rate changes and so on. There's a disconnect between that and and the developments of the share price.

18:14 Share price, we we see as as disconnected across the growth investment trust sector. So so we're obviously part of that, but but the sector around us has has seen a move to a discount trading and this has to do with interest rate cycles and the market appetite for for risk on and risk off in in growth sectors. So that's sort of one piece. I think the second piece is, you know, we we would be the first to say that there has been a slowdown in sub segments of the hydrogen sector. You look at listed hydrogen share prices companies like ITM, Plug Power, Bloom, and you can see those share prices have deteriorated. We're not obviously immune immune from that. And I think, you know, we we we would also say that that the the write down of HH two e, which we announced in November last year was was a setback for our shares.

19:05 The the NAV impact of of that write down,

19:08 it's around 8% of the portfolio value. The share price reaction was more like 25%. So so we saw a strong... A stronger reaction in our share price than than the actual mathematics of of that write down. So I think all of those things together, it was resulted in this disconnect between NAV one one one one six and and share price $20.25 p. Ivan b asked, are both of you still personally invested in the fund of shareholders irrespective of any rewards you enjoy as employees of

19:38 accordion? Do you expect the number of shares you own to increase over time? Let me take that. So, yes, JJ and I still have got a lot of our personal wealth invested into HYDRONG ONE Capital. Why would we sell it? And, yes, we would want to to buy more shares going forward, but we we have really cut costs in in salaries and and rewards to ourselves, you know, reflecting the the environment that we're in.

20:11 And, yeah, and and the rest of the the the board as well would would also be interested in buying more shares going forward, although that's that's a matter for them. But for JJ and me, certainly, yes. Ivan, shareholders greatly appreciate the regular open access provided to the investment adviser. Could you please confirm the date of the next opportunity for shareholders to meet with and question the funds board,

20:36 I. E. Simon Hogan and colleagues, in order for shareholders to understand the decision to partner with Cordient more clearly. Well, I mean, JJ, do you want to take the point I mean, I think in terms of our engagement with shareholders, there's a regular dropbeat of quarterly results. The next quarterly results will be in April. So you'll see the two two faces that that you see now. You'll see that that then. There's an AGM, which is which is typically midyear where all of the board are physically present and then there's a physical meeting in the in the London office. And I think, you know, if I for everybody involved with the fund, if you want to have out of round contact with us or, you know, the investment advisory or the board, drop us an email. There's a... There's an email address on our website, and we can certainly arrange a meeting.

21:29 Andrew l says, has the HYDROWTH PLC ownership changes, I. E, accordion capital, affected the fund's ongoing charges and expenses? Yes. They they have, Andrew. There are a lot of the services that we're paying for at the moment to external entities are managed in house at Acordion. So directly, the cost of work... The the cost structure improves and costs go down for us. Dave asks, which of the holdings do you have a legal right to participate in future funding rounds and with such rights transferred to the buyer upon disposal of the whole or part of the company? JJ, do wanna take that? All of them have the rights to to to what's called tag along. So if if there are if there are divestments by by other parties, then we can tag along to those divestments.

22:22 If there are investments into the portfolio companies, then we have the right to invest at our percentage level in in those in those rounds.

22:33 The the rights that we have to to to invest or or or tag would would go with our shares if were to sell them to to other parties. And then for... I think for all these positions, we have rights to board seats or or board observer seats. And, those those would transfer. James asked, could you explain how the investment manager's interests are aligned with shareholders with specific reference to the fee structure? Let me have a go first of all. I think, first of all, we are directly aligned with you because we hold a lot of shares personally ourselves. We invested at IPO. We want to see this this this being a success. In terms of the fee structure, that... That's just kind of a separate point. It does cost more to run an investment trust that's invested into private assets than it does into listed listed assets. So it's just sort of a separate argument.

23:33 But we are aligned because we want those costs to be at a minimum to to generate the the maximum return for shareholders, and we are a shareholder. So I suppose being shareholders is is is what what what we've done in common with you.

23:50 I I don't know. JJ, could you add to that? Yeah. I mean, we both invested significant money before the IPO to start the company. We invested significant personal money in the shares at the IPO. As portfolio positions are sold, if there's a carry to be paid on those those divestments, then we've committed to to allocating a proportion of that carry back into the market to purchase shares with with a lockup. So we're... I think we're very aligned on on on the equity side.

24:21 In terms of the the fees, our our... As investment adviser, our fees are hardwired to the assets under management. So so we we have paid a percentage fee of of the AUM. So I mean, to be to be rather specific about it, the AUM, the the NAV has deteriorated by over 10% this quarter. And and so our fees will fall by over 10% this this quarter. So we we feel very, very financially aligned with with with the shareholders here. And that is not going to change as we go forward as and when we complete the transaction with Cordient. Andrew L. Asked, with no public news about exits via acquisition or IPO, will Cordian one hundred and one continue to liquidate portions of the existing portfolio to provide cash for day to day operations?

25:10 And how long can that realistically continue without harming investors? First of all, a point just just to be clear clear about here is that Calliant has brought us the adviser, and we advise the PLC. So the PLC ultimately still has full control over investment strategy for HYDROWTH PLC still makes the decisions what what it does with the portfolio. But what we and... We as now as part of accordion advise it going forward. JJ, anything you can add to that? Nope. I think that... I think that's that's the right one. Sorry. Get back up. There was a question. Kassim says, do you feel there is is now too much concentration risk in the portfolio given the investment policy? So it's no single private hydrogen asset would account for more than 20% of gross asset value. Well, just let me start on that. That that was not more than 20% at investment, I think.

26:12 So going forward, you know, we can sort of drift higher. But but what... Why would we want... Not want to keep more of a good asset? So assets have grown in the portfolio according to the value that's been created within within those companies. So Sunfire has been a really, really good investment, we'd want to hang on to as much of that as we can going forward.

26:37 We would want to hang on less than to a to to a good... To a to a poor company, I I I suppose. But, yes, with with with six positions, undeniably, there there is a a concentration in the portfolio. But from what we what we know and we understand that those investments at the moment, that all good. Joseph, is the continuity vote in 2026 passed by a simple majority?

27:05 JJ? Yeah. Yes. Yep. Christopher h, how close are you to JCB? You seem to be attracting positive commentary there, hydrogen powered vehicle. Let me take that up because I've got some some knowledge of that. Yes. We are we are. It's HYDROGEN CAPITAL GROWTH an investment fund set up by the family who are also behind JCB, we are very close to HYDROGEN CAPITAL We we... In fact, we have sold some of our assets in the portfolio to to HYDROGEN CAPITAL and we continue to review new investments with with HYDROGEN CAPITAL going forward as well. And the the... Just to make a comment about the hydrogen powered engine, there's two ways that you use hydrogen. You either use it as a carrier to put it through electrolyzers and then produce electricity later on, or you burn hydrogen upfront as we showed you in that engine example with Safran earlier, and it will be.

28:09 It is the only way that the aviation industry can go with jet jet power that will be burning hydrogen in gas turbines. But that's later in 2030. But, yes, in the meantime, we are interested in being part of the value chain for hydrogen in transmission and storage that will then gets used as part of the JCB going forward.

28:30 Miguel says, thanks. Will external manager contract terms remain the same, or will they change once Acordion has acquired the external manager? They would stay the same. They would stay the same. Andy p, do you expect Cordian to co invest with you in future funding requirements for existing holdings? That's a very good question. JJ, do you want to start on that? It's it's interesting. I mean I mean, Cordian is a... I mean, just a sort of stand by one. Cordian is a is a large global investment platform with $4,000,000,000 of of assets under management with with a global footprint. So so North America, Europe, the... In not too distant future, The Middle East. So so so this is a very different platform than than the one we've been operating on until until recently.

29:23 And it's it's a company that that looks at the investment world through the lens of of of infrastructure 2.0 in in agriculture, in in digital, and in conjunction with us in in in energy transition. So so it's very forward looking. It's very thematic, and it has a has a very different very different footprint. The core... Cordian invests through through listed funds or manage its assets through through listed listed vehicles, I should say. You may be familiar with Cord

29:59 on the listed on the stock exchange and also has investments through private vehicles through through SPVs in in in different regions and different themes. And and so that... That's a very different route to to capital for us and for our shareholders than than the traditional invest... Investment trust route. So so I think this is something we want to come back and talk to you about in more detail with with with actual outcomes. It's that it's that multi jurisdiction, multi asset, know, listed and private opportunity that that really attracts us to Coriant and what that can bring to our to our shareholders. I mean, let let me just add something quickly to that that excellent comment JJ made.

30:45 Coriant are doing this because they they see a lot of... They have a lot of interest from the the the private investment sector about about long term investments into hydrogen. They wanna get close to hydrogen right now, and there's no better way to do that than than becoming the adviser to the only listed investment trust in the world as the seed for future hydrogen investments by by these private investors. So we can't go into too much detail, but this is this is a fantastic opportunity for us because we are now swimming in those pools of capital of some very big global investors. Believe it or not, North America, Middle East, and Europe that that see the portfolio in HGEN is the seed for future growth in the sector.

31:36 Anyway, Terence, let's get a question from him. To improve the share price relative to NAV, don't you think you need to have more exits and then reinvest being a a joint shareholder in projects? Assume there's this leverage that you can yourself... You can exert. JJ, do you wanna make a quick... Like, I I agree certainly with the first part of that that that we we need to continue to to to do exits, demonstrate on NAV, and then have the cash available for for for the board to make future investment decisions. And we've done some of that stuff last year with the gen two exit right, you know, at at at at NAV. We need to see more of that from from the portfolio going forward. And we we are very busy, you know, working on working on on that that that business model. I didn't fully understand the second part of the question, I'm afraid. Richard, I don't know if I've I've covered it. Right. Right. Being Being a a joint shareholder in projects, I assume there's little leverage that you can exert. Well, there's kind of, you know... Yeah. That was not entirely true. I mean, we we we have bought... But... So so we we typically have a percentage stake in in in the six the six businesses that were invested in alongside other investors who are strategic investors or institutions.

32:51 And when we invested on behalf of our shareholders, we made sure to have board seats or board observer seats. So it's a representation of the decision making bodies of those companies. And we're very busy, you know, actively, you know, work... Working with those companies to shape their strategies and and grow their NAVs, which we can then report back to our shareholders and, ultimately, those are the valuations that drive our exits.

33:15 That's a pretty pretty normal style of investing, frankly, rather than a 100% of the business. Yeah. Thank you. Sorry. Andy p, the EU seems to be less focused on hydrogen more recently. So what is the catalyst for for relating of hydrogen assets more generally? I definitely think that's right, Andy. With... You might be forgiven for thinking that by looking at press releases. I mean, our own board asks us the same question. Have asked us the same question as well. Let's just take an example of the... What were the news for in the hydrogen sector in January. There were a 154 major releases about hydrogen globally, and 22 of those were were negative. But the press only picked up on those 22, and you and you might believe that it it... The HYDROGEN was was was turn... Turning off. It absolutely isn't.

34:06 Germany is a big focus for for HYDROGEN in Europe, and there's a there's a government change going on at the moment. So there's a there's a slowdown and a stall in hydrogen policy being implemented, but that's definitely not the case. The EU continues to speed up. Can you be more specific on cost reductions?

34:24 Your response was very vague. We we will look forward to coming back to you on costs. We need to to complete the transaction with accordion. There... We're still working on that. And then once that's done, the integration can can can kick off in earnest, and and then we can certainly have a good discussion with you about costs. I think we can give you one example, though. We we pay an external entity for our a services, and accordion has an a firm internally already. Now not saying what we're gonna do, but, you know, that that would be obvious. Dave asked, has KPMG confirmed the management's assessment of NAV as at the 12/24? And if not, then in mind the reduction prices of listed hydrogen, do you anticipate a reduction in NAV by KPMG?

35:16 I I I can't... You you... You're right. No. We haven't had the full audit by k... KPMG yet. That... We're we're doing it right now.

35:24 But we we get put through the mincer as we should do by KPMG every year on this. And so we've got a very strict

35:32 and structured regime internally for doing on their net asset values. We're confident as we have in previous years that that our valuations will pass. We haven't done it yet, but we're confident that we will be able to maintain that. K. Let's get in towards the end now. I I think think perhaps just to add on the previous question, Richard. I mean, the the... We're not we're not alone in these portfolio companies. There are other investors around the table. And across 2024, there's been a a number of of fresh investments into these portfolio businesses. So new investors coming in. And the price that share price that those invested in invested at is a very important input into the the carrying value of the business, sometimes called PORI price of recent investment.

36:23 So we do have those external price verifications on on a number of the portfolio positions. Ivan asks, probably, a technical one for you, JJ, on NAV. NAV per share at launch was £1 and was 90.39 on the 12/31/2024, a decline of 9.61 p. Is that correct? I... NAV has decreased. I'm trying to understand Jody's early statement that NAV has in fact increased. Yeah. NAV NAV, that's correct on a NAV per share basis. The the share count, I think, is the moving part there. There was a there was a follow on fundraise in 2022, which adjusted the share count. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Another 20,000,000 came in at that at that Okay.

37:12 And a question from Nathan. You mentioned the potential for new investments stemming from relationships with Cordian. Given the share price discount to NAV, how would you be able to facilitate further capital entering the funds?

37:26 I mean, the the the the the, obviously, main route theoretically is that funds... The the existing funds would sell assets at or around NAV or above NAV other external investors or the private investors associated with going forward. And doing two things, putting cash back into the funds much needed, and, of course, demonstrating that the value of the assets already in the funds are are underpriced at the share price by demonstrating that the the NAV is there. I think that's pretty much it, really. There's a few others, but we've sort of covered those in our in our answers. So thank you very much for the for the questions.

38:14 Please come to us directly, contact details in all our press release information. If if you... If there's more follow ups required, I'd like it... I'd like to pass back to to investor me. Perfect. JJ, Rich, thank you very much for updating investors today. Could I please ask investors not to close the session as you now be automatically redirected to provide your feedback in order management team can better understand your views and expectations. This will only take a few moments to complete, but some should be greatly valued by the company. On behalf of the management team of HYDROGEN CAPITAL GROWTH PLC, we'd like to thank you for attending today's presentation, and good morning to you all.