Verbio (Xetra:VBK) Q1 2027 Earnings Call

0:00 Good day ladies and gentlemen and a warm welcome to today's earnings call of Verbio SE following the publication of the Q1 figures of 2026-2027. CEO Claus Sauter and CFO Olaf Troeber as well as head of IR Alina Kohler will speak in a moment and guide us through the presentation and results. After the presentation we will move on to a Q&A session in which you will be allowed to place your questions directly to the management. We're looking forward to the presentation and with this I hand over to you, Mr. Sauter.

0:35 Thank you very much. Thank you to everyone for joining us today. Olaf and I will take you through our first quarter results and the outlook for 26-27. We had a strong start to the year, underlying profitability improved significantly and cash flow was positive. Given the better than expected first quarter and the continued strong biodiesel spreads in Europe and North America, we now expect EBITDA for 2026, 2027 for our business year.

1:22 to come in at the upper end of our guidance range of 210 to 250 million euro. We also see important progress on the regulatory side. Germany is taking tougher action against falsely declared biofuels. This strengthens compliant producers like Verbio and improves the competitive environment. Let me start with the key figures of the first quarter. Production developed positively overall. Biodiesel production increased.

2:14 We saw higher production in Europe and even stronger increase in Canada. Biomethane production also increased to 359 gigawatt hours. Bioethanol production was slightly lower year on year at 147,000 tons. This was mainly due to lower production in Europe, where we had lower yields and some technical issues during the summer. Epidae increased significantly.

3:00 to 76.1 million compared with 15.4 million in Q1 last year. This was mainly driven by better margins in biodiesel and bioethanol in Europe, the strong development of our biodiesel business in Canada and the higher contribution from the greenhouse gas quota business. We also saw A clear improvement in cash flow. Operating cash flow swung from minus 17.3 million in the same quarter last year to positive 34.1 million euro. At the same time, investments remained broadly stable at around 20 million.

3:54 The mainly related to our speciality chemicals project in Bitterfeld, biogas production in South Bend and efficiency measures. In Bitterfeld, the ramp up of the ethanolysis plant is ongoing. This resulted in positive free cash flow of 13.5 million compared with minus 37.8 million a year ago. The positive free cash flow also helped us reduce net debt from 91.5 million at the end of June to 83.1 million at the end of September.

4:45 Our equity ratio remained very solid at 60%. With that, let me hand over to Olaf, who will take you through the EBITDA development and the individual segments in more detail.

5:05 Thank you, Claus. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening, everyone. Thank you for joining us for today's financial results presentations. Apologies, I've got a few technical issues with my camera. So yeah, I hope we can fix it within the next few minutes. Now going back, let me put the first quarter EBITDA into perspective compared with the fourth quarter. Reported EBITDA in Q4 was 88 million compared with Euro 76 million in the first quarter. Well, as a general reminder, Q4 included the shown Euro 19.1 million positive valuation effect in the biomethane business. So excluding this effect, Q4 EBITDA was actually Euro 69.1 million.

6:11 So on an underlying basis, group EBITDA increased quarter on quarter. which is actually a good news. Looking at the segments, biodiesel increased from Euro 32 million to Euro 51 million, while bioethanol and biomethane declined from 55 million to 19 million. Again, largely reflected the valuation effect I just mentioned. And finally, the other segment also improved both year on year and quarter on quarter. The improvement was mainly driven by a positive contribution from our trading activities.

7:04 Now, let me take you through the individual segments in more detail. Let's start with biodiesel. The production was slightly higher than in Q4-25-26 with the increase coming from Canada. Sales reached Euro 306 million compared with 280 million in Q4, mainly reflecting higher biodiesel prices. EBITDA improved from EUR 32 million to EUR 51 million and the main driver was the strong margin environment.

7:56 Higher biodiesel prices more than compensated for higher feedstock costs. At the same time, we benefited from feedstock purchases below the market prices we saw during the quarter, allowing us to realize margins even above market spreads. Overall, the positive development of our Canadian biodiesel business also contributed to the improvement. For some market context, let's now take a look at the reference charts. Here the charts show the development of biodiesel market spreads in Europe.

8:47 The spread itself is simply the difference between biodiesel and rapeseed oil prices. It does not reflect our specific sourcing but gives you a good indication of the overall market development. After the very weak levels at the end of Q4 last financial year, spreads recovered strongly during the first quarter. The chart on the right shows what was behind this. Biodiesel prices increased significantly during the quarter while rapeseed oil prices softened somewhat over the course of the quarter. That said, the quarterly average for rapeseed oil was still higher, both quarter on quarter and year on year.

9:43 Now on the biodiesel side, there we had supportive factors on both the demand and the supply side. On the demand side, the upcoming winter season supported demand for rapeseed material ester, or how we call it, RME, to its better cold flow properties. RME is part of the Fe-10 blend shown on the slide. So stronger demand for RME also supported fame minus 10 prices. On the supply side, well, low water levels on the Rhine limited rapeseed crushing. while rapeseed supply from Ukraine also remained constrained. So both factors limited the availability of feedstock for RME production, keeping RME supply tight and providing further support to biodiesel prices.

10:48 Overall, the market environment improved significantly during the quarter as displayed in or shown in the chart. As I mentioned on the previous slide, our realized margins were even above these market spreads supported by our feedstock sourcing. Now let's move to the second segment, bioethanol and biomethane. Compared with Q4, bioethanol production declined to 147,000 tons, mainly due to lower production in North America, where we had some temporary production issues during the quarter. Biomethane production came down slightly from the record level in Q4 to 359 gigawatt hours.

11:46 Revenue decreased from Euro 243 million to 221 million and mainly reflecting the lower contribution from North America. EBITDA came also down from Euro 55 million to Euro 19 million. Here again, we have to keep in mind that Q4 included the 19 million positive valuation effect in the biomethane business. Now, in addition, bioethanol market margins in Europe were lower. Then the very strong levels we saw in Q4.

12:33 However, through to our sourcing, we were able to limit the impact of the increase in market grain prices. Our actual feedstock costs therefore increased much less than the market price development would suggest. Now in North America, the realized margins improved despite a less favorable ethanol crush, mainly driven by higher corn values. This compensated for the impact of lower production and sales volumes. Let's now take a look at the overall market development.

13:23 Turning to the greenhouse gas quota market, the recovery we saw in Q4 continued during the first quarter. Demand increasingly shifted towards the 2026 compliance year, and quota prices remained strong at around 500,510 euros per ton CO2 equivalent. Part of the higher level compared with last year reflects removal of double counting. But even adjusting for this effect, quota prices are clearly above the levels we saw a year ago. This is also reflected in the higher year on year contribution from the greenhouse gas quota business.

14:20 The market itself continues to benefit from a tighter supply and demand balance following the implementation of ID.3. Also here, low water levels on the Rhine provided additional support as difficult and expensive logistics made physical compliance harder for some market participants, especially the market participants along the River Rhine. Since the end of the quarter and with the start of the annual tender season, quota prices have come under some pressure. So we remain cautious on the future for further price development.

15:13 Let's move on to the European bioethanol market. As you can see on the left, market spreads came down during the first quarter from the high levels we saw at the end of Q4. The chart on the right shows what was behind this. Ethanol prices initially moved lower while wheat prices increased through the quarter. On ethanol, The market eased as the import arbitrage had opened up again. At the same time, low water levels on the Rhine restricted the movement of product out of the Rotterdam region.

16:07 This led to a build up of inventories and put additional pressure on ethanol prices. Towards the end of the quarter, ethanol prices started to recover again. Partially driven by higher natural gas prices and raising production costs for the industry. So while ethanol prices moved up, this did not mean the same improvement in margins. Again, production costs increased. On grain, international prices were supported by continued logistic constraints linked to the war in Ukraine and some weather-related crop losses, particularly in corn. However, this benchmark development does not fully reflect our sourcing situation.

17:01 In our relevant sourcing regions, especially in eastern Germany and Poland, Overall crane availability remained good. We also saw a high availability of lower quality crane which we can use in our production and which is traded as discounts to benchmark prices. So while benchmark market spreads were lower than in Q4, our actual feedstock costs developed much better than the market benchmark would suggest. Now turning to the US, ethanol production remained high during the quarter, but demand was also solid. Domestic blending was supported by higher D6 RIN values. These are the credits used for compliance under the U.S. Renewable Fuel Standard, and higher values provided an incentive to blend more ethanol.

18:13 Together with strong export demand, this helped to absorb the high production and supported ethanol prices. Now coming to the feedstock prices for corn harvest in 2025. So the corn harvested last year also moved higher during the quarter, supported by strong demand from exports, feed and ethanol production. As corn prices rose more strongly than ethanol prices, the benchmark spread shown on the left came under pressure. Now looking ahead, The latest crop estimates for the 26th harvest, so the harvest that's ongoing right now, point to strong yields and plenty of corn available.

19:06 This is already putting some pressure on corn prices and should support US ethanol exports. So for us, higher corn values provided additional support during the quarter. Well, despite the lower ethanol margins, our realized overall margins improved both year on year and quarter on quarter. Let's go to the next slide. Based on the first quarter performance and the market development we have seen since then, we are more confident about the outlook for the full financial year.

19:59 Given the better than expected first quarter and the continued strong biodiesel spreads in Europe and North America, we now expect crude EBITDA to come in at the upper end of our guidance range of Euro 210 million to Euro 250 million. Our view on the seasonality of the business remains unchanged. As a result, the first quarter performance should not be seen as indicative for the full year run rate. We continue to expect a meaningful contribution from the greenhouse gas quota business. At the moment, quota prices are under some pressure during the ongoing tender season. So we remain cautious here.

20:57 On the cash flow, the cash Flow developed quite positive, so the stronger earnings development together with the planned lower level of investment should support a strong cash generation and a further significant reduction in net debt. With that, I will hand back to Claus for a few comments on the latest market and regulatory developments.

21:33 Thank you. Thank you, Olaf. So let's talk a little bit about the regional market and the regulatory developments. We see a number of positive developments in our key markets, at least I would say only positive. In Germany we are finally seeing tougher action against fraud in the biofuel market. We have to take into account that The Vertrauensschutz is moving away January 2027. So this year, we had a special situation. But anyway, with the new rules, fuels with fraudulent sustainability documents can be excluded from the Gienhaus gas quota system from January 2027.

22:33 This is positive for producers like us, like Verbio. Customers, and this is what we see in the actual negotiations, are looking more intensively like in the past for reliable partners with compliant supply chains. This can support demand and potentially also better commercial terms. In Europe, the discussion around the post-2035 framework is becoming more concrete. The center groups in the European Parliament have agreed on a compromise.

23:20 The Environment Committee adopted it last week and the plenary vote is expected in December. The proposal recognizes vehicles that run only on eligible renewable fuels as zero emission vehicles. Clearly, the problem is not The combustion engine. The problem is the fuel. And this I think I say now more than 10 years. The problem is not the combustion engine. The problem is the fuel. So if we replace fossil fuels with renewable molecules, we have a solution. This is available today.

24:08 It's cost saving costs and works with the existing infrastructure we already have. We also see growing support for E20 and B10. Both would allow more renewable fuels to be used in the existing vehicle fleet. So the idea from making all electric Slowly moving away. And based on the data we have, registrations for CNG and LNG trucks have recently picked up.

24:55 This is a positive sign for biomethane demand in heavy duty transport. And finally, this is what we expected, especially after the war started in March, because The gap between fossil diesel and ZNG, bio ZNG and bio LNG in a truck is significant. And it's about one third of the price than with fossil diesel. In the US, strong biodiesel margins have allowed us to change our plans for our Canadian plant in Valent. Instead of originally planned winter shutdown, we can continue production through the winter for the most part.

25:50 And the proposed Canadian CFR multiplier for domestic production could provide additional upside for Welland. Overall, we see the market and regulatory environment moving in the right direction. There is one other point I wanted to address, and that is the role of fossil fuel prices. We sometimes see our sharp price move With the oil price, so the move of our share. So I want to make it crystal clear about the relationship here.

26:35 Some of the developments we just discussed are reinforced by concerns around energy security and higher fossil fuel prices. But this does not mean that our earnings simply follow the oil price. The high oil price was supporting our business model because right now all of our molecules, biodiesel, bioethanol and biomethane, renewable natural gas, is cheaper than the fossil brother. So in that case, high oil prices were supportive.

27:20 I think we would not talk about E10 and B10 without diesel at 250. So it was supporters. But this has brought us to that ideological change. Biofuels have their own markets. Their prices depend on supply and demand and are closely linked to their feedstock markets. Thank you for watching. Corn oil in our US ethanol business is a good example, as we have just seen. And then there is sterol, glycerin and in the future, chemicals.

28:19 On the cost side, feedstock and energy prices are key. And finally, our sourcing. Plant utilization and where and when we sell our products all affect the margin we achieve. So the message is simple. High fossil fuel prices will support demand for biofuels, but they do not directly determine Verbio's margin or EBITDA. With that, let's move to Q&A.

29:04 Yes, thank you so much for your presentation. Dear participants, we are now open for your questions and everybody is invited to post questions in the chat and I would be happy to read them out loud for you. Additionally, analysts have the possibility to ask questions in person via audio line. To do so, please click on the raise your hand button below. If you have dialed in by phone, please use the key combination of Starkey 9 followed by Starkey 6. And I can see that we have nothing in our chat right now, but we do have a risen hand by Mrs. Stürzer. You may unmute yourself now. I just sent you an invite.

29:56 Mrs. Stützer, can you hear us? I just sent you an invite to unmute yourself. I'm not sure if she can hear us, but we can move on to Mr. Jorge Gonzalez. I just sent you an invite to unmute yourself.

30:24 Hello, can you hear me? Yes, loud and clear. Thank you very much for the presentation. So my first question will be on the GSG quotas. You showed that the price has been running 500 to 510 recently, but at the same time you mentioned that the price was now under some pressure. Can you indicate us where is the price at this point and how the negotiations you are having with your customers are going in this regard for this year's quota?

31:13 Well, yeah, Olaf mentioned quota prices came down because right now we are in the negotiation phase. So as I mentioned in my speech is that the focus from our customers are more drifting about compliance, security of supply, resilience. So right now the market, there are not a lot of market action and We see this every year that during this phase that quota prices are coming down but negotiations are still ongoing so Right now we don't have many signed contracts, so I cannot give you a real outlook.

32:17 We expect that all of our production will be needed next year, because you know also everything which is palm related, also Pome, is not counting in 2027 anymore. There is no double counting. So rapeseed oil will remain strong. There are not many options. So these are the main arguments at the moment in the negotiations, but it is too early. We cannot give you too much feedback for this. But anyway, for 2027, you saw that The obligation is growing by 5.5%, so from 12% to 17.5%. The frozen CO2 savings from 2024 will also come to the market.

33:11 Anyway, we expect firm quota prices, not maybe at these top levels, this is not what we expect, 500,510, but we expect that the quota prices will be surely between 400 and 500 euros.

33:29 Thank you, that's very helpful. One question on the inventory increase in your P&L. Is this related to also GSE quotas generated during this quarter that you will sell later on? In this case, have you changed the way you account them, the internal cost or something?

33:57 No, thanks for the question. Actually, this is more volume driven. It's partially the increasing quota inventory and also a fraction of this is increased volumes in biomethane. So that's actually quite natural. So you buy and sell the biomethane. So there's a fluctuation between the inventory and with respect to the quota itself. As you know, the majority of the quota is sold in March, April of the following year. So there will be an increase even over the course of the next quarter.

34:39 You know, Jorge, at the moment the focus is they want to make, they have to get a feeling what will be in 2027. So right now the main focus is to secure the new volumes for 2027. And the changes, the regulatory changes are significant. So once this is done, they look how much fossil fuel they sold and then they prepare their CO2 balance sheet in Q1, usually Q1. In the last years, it was also postponed for Q2. So at least at the end of March or June, they have to be compliant. So the focus at the moment is mainly on getting the hands on the molecules for next year.

35:31 And you know, especially that was a very interesting year. Also, the low water in the Rhine showed how important it is to have local supply. Because all the imports are coming usually from Rotterdam on the Rhine and if there is no water then logistic is also a key issue. So that was really a very, very interesting year.

35:57 Thank you, very useful. Very last one. On the B-ethanol, you commented that the strong demand for ethanol and the good production of corn could maybe change the negative trend on the spreads. Is that what you wanted to pass in your message? Were you suggesting that the spread is stabilizing?

36:29 Is this what I... You mean in the U.S.? In the U.S., yes. Yeah. Oh, well.

36:36 If we could foresee the margins... Well, from my point of view, what we see is that the global demand for ethanol is growing everywhere. And the cheapest molecule is U.S. corn ethanol. So I used to say, The challenge in ethanol is still that it is not seen as renewable liquid energy. Most of the ethanol production is seen as something to make the local farmer happy. But this is disappearing due to the high oil prices. So we clearly saw it in 2026.

37:21 and we further expected in 27 that the global demand for ethanol will grow because it is a cheap component. It helps to bring fossil prices down. And related to this, 26 was already very good on margins, additionally on the 45C and all that stuff. We expect at least that the margins will stay on that level, but I think there is also upside potential.

37:54 Perfect, very helpful. Thank you very much. I go back to the line.

37:59 Thank you so much. As we have not received any further risen hands and Mrs. Stürzer has put her question in our chat box, I will read that one out loud for you now. First, based on current hedging and feedstock positions, how much visibility do you have that realized biodiesel margins will remain above market spreads in Q2? And secondly, has the timing or size of the previously outlined 30 to 50 million EBITDA potential from higher Nevada utilization and South Bend biomethane integration you have communicated on the CMD changed?

38:43 Well, no, our view, what we communicated on the CMD doesn't or didn't change. And what was the first question?

38:58 Yes, of course. The first question was based on current hedging and feedstock positions. How much visibility do you have that realized biodiesel margins will remain above market spreads in Q2?

39:15 First of all, we don't disclose our hatching strategy, but we have quite a good visibility, especially on biodiesel. As I tried to explain before, some feedstocks are going out of the market, everything which is palm oil related. So rapeseed oil will be one of the most important feedstocks, especially for crop based. And we are quite positive to be able to continue what biodiesel means also for the second quarter.

40:05 All right, thank you very much. We have a couple of more questions here. Another one is, how about development in the biogas segment? Revenue growth, margins?

40:23 Well, our main target is to increase The utilization. So we have no focus and no new projects on building new plants. There is still, and you saw it in the presentation, there is space of increasing the production. And well, at the moment we have a very interesting development because natural gas prices tripled. So we have to see how the impact will be. Right now our main focus is that we bring our RNG into the transport sector.

41:09 There we need more trucks because one of the reasons that natural gas, bio LNG, bio CNG is so cheap Thank you very much. and many others. We will see this positive impact because the trucks which were bought the last months, LNG and ZNG trucks, are still not on the road.

41:56 They are coming. And what we heard from the producers that most of them are outsold. So here a lot of Demand is moving away from diesel to CNG and LNG.

42:11 I would also from an accounting and technical perspective. So it doesn't make sense to separate the bio-etanol from the biomethane segment because it's a whole process. You produce the biomethane and we see this from the biomethane production will then be used for the production of biomethane. So it's simply a transfer pricing issue and please understand it doesn't make sense to separate these bioethanol and biomethane segment.

42:50 Thank you very much. Another question we have would be, since it is very realistic that you will get 45 Z-tax credits in the US, why don't you take it with a cautious price approach in your guidance? Even a very low 45 Z-tax credit per gallon will be very significant for Verbios EBITDA.

43:12 Well, this is very simple to answer. We have the guidance, but the final guidance is coming in December. And before we have really everything written down, we cannot take something into our guidance. There will be something, but we have to wait until we have really, really the final guidance. And you know, it's not only 45C on the production, it is also the Climate Smart Act, where carbon intensity is influenced by How the farmers are or how much fossil fertilizer they are using to grow their corn.

44:01 So a lot of impacts, but right now it will take until December and then I think we will be able to adjust our guidance once we know really how much we can take into account.

44:17 Thanks a lot. We have a couple of more questions here. One would be, thank you for the presentation. You mentioned some production issues in your North American plants. Are these completely fixed or do you expect further issues in the future?

44:35 We were working whole summer on these issues. There was on both sides something in the biogas production what we haven't seen, what we never saw in our German plants, but we fixed it now. So we were working all summer and we are very optimistic that we will be able now to ramp up both plants, increase the production and Yeah, get more volumes produced. We fixed it.

45:13 Thanks a lot. Another question we have was, is there any news regarding India?

45:21 Well, two weeks ago I was in India, one week. There is a lot of dynamic in the Indian market. So there is a new program which gives CapEx subsidies and the price for, in India they call it CBG, compressed biogas, by 40%. So it's quite interesting and there is an obligation to state-owned companies that they have to build several companies all together up to 200 plants. You know that we have announced that we are going to make a joint venture with Gale, that is the grid operator.

46:06 So I think we clearly waited for the new regime and now we continue to get our JV, our joint venture in place. and I guess there will be a lot of investment going now to new plants and to more production capacity. We have still one plant in India which is still the biggest plant and together with Gale in the joint venture we are planning to build up to two new plants. CapEx will be lower, also the production numbers. So India is, the biogas market is taking off.

47:03 All right, thanks a lot. We have four questions left as far as I can see. One would be, If the refining bottleneck is structural, how do you see biodiesel spreads evolving? How do you see capacity utilization and feedstock flexibility adapting? And could stronger spreads outweigh softer GHG quota prices?

47:33 As far as I understood the question right, yes, we see at the moment High margins on fossil diesel related to supply issues. But this doesn't affect our biodiesel margins. I tried to explain the biodiesel margin is high and was high due to the availability of rapeseed oil. and lack of alternatives and also logistical problems, low water in the Rhine. So right now what will happen in 2027 is really hard to estimate, but as I said already during my presentation, A lot of feedstock is going away in 2027. Everything which is palm related, palm oil, palm oil mill effluent.

48:41 And we think that the margins, especially on RME, will still remain high. This is our expectation. In our guidance, we are conservative, as you know. But let's see what's going. 2027 will really be an interesting situation. Much higher obligation and less optionality on the biodiesel side.

49:16 Thanks a lot. Three questions, two questions left. One would be the biodiesel segment could improve significantly with EBITDA above 50 million. What is your outlook?

49:30 Olaf?

49:39 Well, as Claus mentioned before, the point is that we, what do we know right now? We know Q1. We know that Q2 started with quite good margins, also in the biodiesel segment. But we do not know how will we conclude the term contracts for next year, how the margins will come, etc. And therefore, Yeah, what Claus actually said, end of this year, no, end of this calendar year, December or January, we have a clearer visibility on our margins for the second half. So yeah, that's actually nothing to add. We will give you an update as soon as we have a clearer visibility.

50:36 Thanks a lot. There are two more questions for today. One would be, can you give some details to the utilization in the US plants? How much will you invest in the current year?

50:54 So US utilization in Nevada right now is about 60-70%. I said that we had some issues with the biogas production. But we were able to bring some digestate out and have this under control. So we are now ramping up to full capacity and the same in South Bend. There our utilization is about 70%. So we had some issues with the dryers in spring 2026. On this we were working. and there we can now continue. And we started, and this is the question with the investments, we started now to build the biogas plant.

51:55 I think six or eight digesters already built. And here our strategy is that we are related to the 45C, We will burn the crude gas in our boiler and replace natural gas and create tax credits via 45C. This is a very attractive option, what we have now related to 45C. which was not before at the original price. So we have less investment. And I don't know, Olaf, how much is the plan? How much we are going? I think something about $30 million to do the investment in South Bend in 2027. Yeah, correct.

52:46 Around about 30. Good.

52:50 So finally, at the moment, our main target is still to be rigid on investments. We have there our assets. We are not fully utilized at most of the production in the US, not gas, not ethanol, something Thank you very much. In the summer, nearly every month we had new record production and now we can also have a focus there. I think it was highly necessary that Canada is doing its own biofuel policy and with the CFR, which is highly promoting and supporting local production, that also helps.

54:01 So that's the focus, not big additional investments. The assets, what we have on higher utilization and let's make money.

54:15 Thanks a lot. One last question for today. Could you give us a short update on the Bitterfeld Ethnolysis business?

54:24 Yes, I can. The plant is still commissioning. It's a complicated process. It will take some time. We expect that at the end of November, December, we will have the first saleable products. Right now with the high crude oil prices and here crude oil is essential because in the chemistry, There doesn't exist an obligation. So we need to be competitive here. But with the products, what we are producing right now, it is interesting. So clients are waiting for product.

55:11 As I said, December, we expect to have the first saleable volumes. But, you know, don't expect too much from this ethanol of ethanol uses. This is for us. Project for the future. And I think I said it also during our Capital Markets Day. If this works and we will be able to supply rapeseed methyl ester into chemical products, transferred in chemical products and supply the market Then I cannot imagine that so much biodiesel in the future, so much RME, rapeseed methylester, will be used as biodiesel anymore because the margin and the chemical part are much bigger.

56:05 But it will take time. It will take years. But this is really something essential and right now Thanks a lot.

56:36 This was our last question for today. So as no further questions have appeared, this was also the last answer for today that concludes our call. I have nothing more to add than thank you for attending. Have a lovely remaining day and I hand back over to Mr. Sauter for some final remarks.

56:57 Okay, thank you very much. Thank you very much for everybody who was asking questions. I hope that we were able to deliver Reasonable answers. So we had a good start to the year and the market environment has clearly, clearly improved compared with where we were a year ago. We also see a change in the political and regulatory environment. Biofuels are getting more attention, more attention again. and measures against fraud are moving in the right direction. That double counting was going away was very important because most of the product which came into Europe was not qualified to get double counting. So that was really, really a difficult time for us. Fortunately, now that is past. So there are still uncertainties, no doubt. And we have to see how some of these markets develop over the coming months. But overall, we are in a much better position than a year ago. So thank you very much for everybody who was joining.

58:18 Have a good day.