U.S. Physical Therapy (NYSE:USPH) Q1 2023 Earnings Call

0:00 Please stand by. Your program is about to begin. If you should need any audio assistance during your call, please press star zero. Good day and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the U.S. Physical Therapy first quarter 2023 earnings conference call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there will be a question and answer session. In order to ask a question during the session, please press the star key followed by the number one on your telephone keypad. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. If you require any further assistance, please press star zero. I'd now like to turn the call over to Chris Redding, President and CEO. Please go ahead, sir.

0:45 Thank you very much. Good morning and welcome, everyone, to our U.S. Physical Therapy first quarter 2023 earnings call. joining me on our call this morning from our executive team at Kerry Hendrickson, our CFO, Rick Binstein, our Executive Vice President and General Counsel, Eric Williams and Graham Reeve, our COOs, Jake Martinez, our Senior Vice President, Finance and Controller. Before I make some opening remarks, I'll ask Jake to cover a brief disclosure statement. Jake, if you would, please. Thank you, Chris. This presentation contains forward-looking statements which involves certain risks and uncertainties. These forward-looking statements are based on the company's current views and assumptions.

1:31 The company's actual results may vary materially from those anticipated. Please see the company's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission for more information. Thanks, Jake. I'm going to make some brief high-level comments this morning on various aspects of the business. and then I'm going to turn it over to Kerry to cover the numbers. He does a great job with that. I want to start out by just thanking our team. You know, middle of last year, really, probably beginning in late May into June, it seemed like the world changed having come through a couple of years of the pandemic and working our way through that well. And then, you know, we got hit in the head with massive inflation. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:49 volume's been excellent it's been been as strong as it's ever been and interestingly this time first quarter in 2022 at that point was our best ever first quarter visits per clinic per day quarter in the history of the company and we blew last year's first quarter away so our partners our staff the care that they're giving the patients marketing folks All of the support that is helping us drive strongest volume ever in the history of the company. It's just exceptional right now. We've made progress. We're not done. We've made progress in our salary and our total cost per visit.

3:35 Carrie's going to share some of those numbers, progressions with you. Again, this is helped by volume. Still in an inflationary period, but we're making progress, as you'll note, in a couple of the key areas that definitely, I think, ultimately impact these cost numbers as well. On the rate side, our rate renegotiation continues to progress. Our team is doing a very good job. It's kind of a process that takes some time. We're working our way through A very, very large portfolio of contracts, but we're getting some good, really nice increases. And while it might not seem to some of you that rate has been impacted, particularly when you look at this first quarter number, you have to remember that we're in another year where we're in the middle of a Medicare cut a couple percent.

4:37 We've had The sequester relief phase-out, which was done last year, so that's another 2% this quarter. And if all things had been equal, and you look at a rate this quarter, really up 2%, you know, against the backdrop. And so, again, we're making progress. We're not done. More work to happen there. So we've had... You know, mid-teens, upper-teens, revenue growth before, but considering the market that we're in right now, and considering some of the macro influences, to come away with nearly 16% revenue growth in PT, along with double-digit operating income improvement, and the highest ever Q1 EBITDA, I'm really pleased with that right now. It's been a tremendous amount of work to get us there, and more work More opportunity, actually, to happen.

5:40 Some of that revenue growth has come from our most mature facilities. In fact, our same store this quarter, again, benchmarking against probably the best first quarter we'd ever had a year ago, our same store numbers are up 6%, which is a really strong number for us. So when you combine that with the really good acquisitions that we've done We've done some phenomenal acquisitions with great people. I got to see some of them last Friday when they were in for Masters. But whether they were here last week or are still in the field, just working really hard to expand and to grow and to make a difference. I've been really, really pleased with the people and really pleased with the progress and the effort.

6:32 So we talked a little bit, spoke a little bit last call about us no longer going to accept low margin business or no margin business and particularly pointing to some of our Medicare Advantage contracts that I think are kind of a plague to our industry right now, particularly considering how much money these managed care payers are making to take care of Medicare patients under their Advantage plans. They're not paying providers enough. Some of them are in some markets, sure, but some of them are not. And so we've undergone a process to drop those contracts.

7:17 For those of you who listen from other places, other companies, industry, somewhere within the industry, I would just encourage you to continue to evaluate your contracts. We do, as a profession, a phenomenal job for our patients. We should be the musculoskeletal gatekeepers and we should be paid accordingly in order to do and produce the kind of care and results at the cost levels, frankly, that we produce. The only reason that these companies will continue to pay us at low rates is because people accept low rates as kind of the status quo, and that really, frankly, needs to change.

8:04 So we talked about volume. Again, even through the quarter, on the other side of this first quarter, volume continues to be very, very strong. So I'm hoping and expecting we can keep that going. We've made progress on our front desk automation rollout. It's nicely underway. We'll be rolling out and expanding as the year goes on. It's going to take a little time to do that, but we think that that is also going to help with our employee retention at the front desk, which has improved also dramatically. In fact, our turnover for licensed clinical positions is as low as I can remember in many, many years.

8:53 It's gone down a lot. And while our front desk and our related hourly turnover is not at that level yet, it's improved considerably from where it was last year. Now let's shift gears for a second and talk about our injury prevention business. You know, that business has been incredibly strong and incredibly resilient. We've added to it over the period with a number, a handful, really, of really nice acquisitions. That business continues to be a very important part of our company, gives us some diversification, and it makes a difference to these customers. We're going to slow a little bit this year, I think, just as I look out. We're seeing some, particularly in the tech sector, CEOs and CFOs of some of these large companies Thank you for joining us.

10:16 We're going to have some wins and losses, and that's going to level us out a little bit more than we've seen in the past. And that's already built in. As Kerry will cover the first quarter numbers, that's kind of where I expect this year's going to look like. I think we'll achieve our budget for the year, but we'll be a little lighter on the growth side than we have been, unless we can get a deal done. So I'm going to kick it over to Kerry. This feels like a really good start to the year. Again, I want to thank my team. We're excited about it. We have some great things we're working on that we're not going to talk about yet today, but will be a little bit later in the year that I think will be meaningful for our company. And so with that, Kerry, I'd ask you to go ahead and cover the results in more detail.

11:03 Great. Thank you, Chris, and good morning, everyone. You know, as Chris's remarks reflected, we had an outstanding first quarter buy in most any measure. We had record high volumes. We had strong growth in revenue. We had a continuing downward trend in our salaries and in our total operating costs on a per visit basis. We had growth in our physical therapy operating income and in our operating income margin and year-over-year growth in our total company adjusted EBITDA. So, a really good start to the year. We reported adjusted EBITDA for the first quarter of $18.5 million. which was an increase of $1 million over the $17.5 million that we reported in the first quarter of 22. Our operating results, which includes the impact of the higher interest expense, was 59 cents per share in the first quarter of 23.

11:51 Our total company revenues increased 12.8% in the first quarter, growing from $131.7 million last year to $148.5 million in the first quarter of this year. And our total company operating income increased $2 million from $15 million in the first quarter of 22 to $17 million in the first quarter of 23. Our average visits per clinic per day in the first quarter was 29.8. That's the highest first quarter volume in the company's history, and it's the second highest volume for any quarter, bested only by the second quarter of 2021 when our average visits per clinic per day was 30.0. And each month in this first quarter was a record high for that respective month. Our average visits per clinic per day was 28.9 in January.

12:39 It was 29.8 in February, and then 30.7 in March. And that 30.7 in March was the highest volume for any month in the company's history. Our net rate that Chris referred to was $103.12, which was an increase of 12 cents over the first quarter of the last year, despite differences in Medicare rates year over year. We had a 2% Medicare rate reduction that was put in place at the beginning of this year, and then in the first quarter of last year, we still had 2% sequestration relief on Medicare rates, which was phased out as the year went along last year. The Medicare rate differences were more than offset by a 3.2% increase in our commercial rates versus the first quarter of last year. As Chris noted, we still have a lot of work to do here, but we expect to continue making progress in increasing our commercial rates, and we're continuing with our plan to renegotiate or terminate contracts that reimburse us at a rate that's less than what it costs us to serve our patients, which is primarily related to a subset of our Medicare Advantage contracts. And we expect the impact of that work, the reduction of the Medicare Advantage contracts that are at low rates, to begin showing up in the second half of 23.

13:49 Our physical therapy revenues, they were $127.4 million in the first quarter of 23. That's an increase of $17 million, or 15.6% from the first quarter of 22 The revenue increase, as Chris noted, at our same-store clinics was 5.8%, driven by an excellent 6% increase in our visits versus the prior year. Physical therapy operating costs were $100.6 million, which was an increase of 13.9% over the first quarter of last year. We were very pleased to see our physical therapy operating costs per visit decrease versus the first quarter of last year, declining from $83.09 per visit in the first quarter of 22 to $81.97 per visit in the first quarter of 23.

14:35 Our physical therapy operating costs per visit peaked in the third quarter of 2022, and they've come down each quarter since then. Our total operating costs were $85.14 in the third quarter of 22. They decreased to $84.05 in the fourth quarter of 22, and then they declined further to $81.97 in the first quarter of this year. Our salaries and related costs per visit were up just 0.7% in the first quarter of this year versus last year and they've also continued to trend down since the third quarter of 2022. From $60.99 in the third quarter down to $60.04 in the fourth quarter of 22 and then down further to $59.14 per visit in the first quarter of this year.

15:22 The increase in physical therapy volumes and revenue coupled with our stabilizing expenses resulted in improvement in our physical therapy margin as well, improving to 21.0% in the first quarter of 23 compared to 20.0% in the first quarter of 22. Chris provided color on our industrial engine prevention business in his remarks. Our revenues for that business were $19.4 million in the first quarter, up $300,000 in the first quarter of 2022. Our expenses in that business were $15.6 million, which is an increase of $700,000 resulting in industrial injury operating income of $3.8 million. And our margin in that business was 19.5% in the first quarter of 23 as compared to 21.8% in the first quarter of 22. Our interest expense was $2.6 million in the first quarter of 23, which was an increase of $2 million over the first quarter of last year.

16:17 The higher interest expense is due to an increase in our debt-related acquisitions closed during and since the first quarter of last year. And then, of course, higher interest rates in the first quarter of this year than they were last year. Our balance sheet remains in an excellent position. We have a $150 million term loan with a five-year swap agreement in place that fixes the one-month term SOFR rate on that $150 million at 2.815%. including the applicable margin based on our leverage ratio, the all-in rate on our $150 million of debt was 4.915% in the first quarter, a very favorable rate in today's market and below the current Fed funds rate. In the first quarter of 23, the swap agreement saved us $700,000 in interest expense.

17:04 At March 31, our swap agreement had a mark-to-market value of $3.6 million. meaning that the current expectation is that we will pay $3.6 million less in interest expense of the remaining approximate four years of our swap agreement than we would have paid without the swap. In addition to the term loan, we also have a $175 million revolving credit facility, and that had $38 million drawn on it at March 31, and we had cash in our balance sheet of $32.6 million at March 31. The borrowings on the revolver, that $38 million, that's at a variable rate. The weighted average variable interest rate on our debt on that facility in the first quarter was approximately 6.8%, and that put our total overall effective interest rate for the first quarter at 5.5%, including the term loan.

17:52 The strength of our results in the first quarter and the continuing strong volumes we're seeing in April give us continued confidence in the adjusted EBITDA guidance range provided at the beginning of the year of $75 million to $80 million That guidance excludes the impact of potential acquisitions in the remainder of the year. In closing, we've had a very solid start to 2023 and will continue to work hard to produce the best results possible for all of our stakeholders this year. And with that, Chris, I'll turn the call back to you. Hello, Chris. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Carrie. I was muted.

18:39 Operator, go ahead and open the line for questions. Certainly. At this time, if you would like to ask a question, please press star 1 on your touchtone phone. You may withdraw your question at any time by pressing the pound key. Once again, that's star 1. We'll take our first question from Larry Salo with TJS. Please go ahead. Good morning, Larry. Good morning. Good morning, guys. I have that problem with the mute button sometimes, too. So, really, really good start to the year. Obviously, you know, I think weather, you know, or lack of bad weather across most of the country. I know some parts had some bad weather, but probably certainly helped you guys, was a good guy for you. But, again, 6% seems to our volume growth is really, really remarkable, coming off of a great comp, too. So...

19:33 Just looking at it, I know you don't guide quarterly, but we're kind of in the heart of a good part of the year, right? You did almost 31 visits per day per clinic. Any reason to think that wouldn't continue, at least assuming weather remains fairly on your side? Yeah, I'll say this. Volume continues to be very strong. I'm not going to go out and predict. Yes, we certainly shouldn't have major weather events, certainly not winter weather events going forward. And I am hopeful that we can continue to grow as we have most every year since I've been here with the exception of the second half of last year. And so We're certainly going to work to do that.

20:27 We'll have to see how it shakes out, but we like where we sit right now. Do you think labor, obviously labor is still a higher price, of course, but it feels like your access to and availability is a lot better. Did that help? Were you leaving some revenue on the table or just unable to serve as many patients per day just because of labor issues that have gotten better? Is that part of the The quarterly comparison access to labor was not as much of an issue a year ago. I will also say that right now our time to fill open positions has decreased dramatically from where it was in the second half of last year.

21:32 It's improved a lot. I think it will continue to improve. That's my sense. And that's both for clinical positions as well as front desk positions. And I have to believe that some of the 20,000 people who left the profession at some point in the pandemic or during the pandemic A lot of those folks, I think, you know, I said early on, I thought they all wouldn't stay out forever. I think a lot of those folks will come back. And, yeah, certainly I think that will help us as the year progresses on a comparative basis. Got it. Just last question, one follow-up. Just on the total clinics, it looks like I think you grew seven sequentially, and I think there was only one acquisition of the one larger clinic, right?

22:19 Yeah. Looks like six net new clinics, if I'm not mistaken, so that's pretty good de novo activity, at least to start the year, if my math is right. Yeah, we've got good de novo activity. We've got across a swath of great partnerships. We've got more acquired activity, which is coming, and it should be another very good year. At least that's what we're working to produce and expect that that will happen by the time we You know, we lapped this year. So development right now, we feel confident that we can deliver a good year both to Novo as well as acquired. Excellent. Thanks, Chris. I appreciate all the calling. Yeah. Thanks, Larry.

23:04 Thanks, Larry. And we will take our next question from Brian Tinkwilit with Jefferies. Please go ahead. Hey, good morning, guys. Congratulations. Good morning. Thank you. Good morning. I guess, Chris, I'll start with, you know, obviously, strong quarter here. Larry said a strong start of the year. It's really nice to see that. Do you think you're gaining market share, or is the whole industry seeing kind of like a recovery and an uptick in demand for physical therapy services right now? Yeah, I don't know yet, Brian. I mean, you know, I think select reports tonight, After the market closes, I think ATI reports next week. We'll see how they do. I have a lot of friends who are CEOs of these other companies, but we tend not to put each other in a position where we're sharing details inside baseball.

24:01 Look, I think last year was a tough year, and last year was one of the first years that we didn't grow our visits per clinic per day. Thank you for joining us. are the resources that we can provide. And some of those resources are directionally enabling these companies to grow at a faster rate than they would have otherwise.

24:49 And so I think that's coming from market share, but I don't have a good way to measure it to be absolutely precise. And so it's just my guess. Josh, and then, yes, Gary, as we think about rates, just curious, you know, you talked in your prepared remarks about how you're are going to walk away from some of these underpaying contracts. You've already been vocal and public about it since the last quarter or so. So just curious what those conversations are like or what the feedback or reception has been from those payers as you're having those conversations. Yeah, I'd say it's mixed. In some cases, they're willing to come back and renegotiate rates with us, and sometimes they're not, and that's fine with us. And we're We're going to move forward. It's not good business for us, and as Chris noted, we're not going to take that any longer. So we're fine with walking away from it.

25:43 They don't represent that much volume for us, and it's volume that we can easily replace, especially with the strong volumes we're having this year. So we feel good about it. And look, in a tight labor market, no, I'm sorry, in a tight labor market, It's still a little tight. It's getting better, but it's not easy. You just can't afford to be looking and hiring staff to take business where you don't have a margin profile. When we talk about market share movement, we're going to move that market share to our competitors. We're going to let them take it at $0.60 on the dollar, and there's going to be no margin there. We're going to replace that with much better margin business.

26:35 Whether they come back or not, they have in some cases, they haven't in other cases. I'm okay with that right now. Actually, my next question, Chris, was related to that. You called out in your prepared remarks how your turnover at the clinician level is at its lowest. Just curious, I know you're very in touch with a lot of folks in the industry and we're hearing Turnover rates that are notably higher than yours from some of your competitors. So just curious, what are you hearing from your own clinicians as maybe you do survey work that allows you to maintain this industry low turnover rate for clinicians? Look, again, I can't say absolutely with precision, but I definitely feel like it has to do with a partner model.

27:26 It has to do with What they hear from leadership in terms of our values and what's important. I think that resonates with people and helps people be stickier in terms of understanding the big picture. I think when we have challenges, we go about those challenges in a certain way. We're not beating people up. We're not slamming fists on the table and It's not a threatening environment. It's a supportive environment. I think all that ultimately filters through. I have to believe some of it is the fact that when you look throughout the organization from a leadership perspective, whether it's our regional presidents, our COOs, or even maybe to a lesser extent me, having long-term industry experience and not just coming from You know, another business segment or working with a private equity group that, you know, flipped the business in another totally different kind of an area.

28:37 I think it resonates with people that were about this from a care perspective first and foremost. And, you know, I think I have a good team and they do a good job carrying those messages and and embodying those things that are important. And I think ultimately it makes a difference. I hope that's what it is. Awesome. All right. Thank you, guys. Congrats again. Thanks, Brian. Thanks, Brian. And once again, as a reminder, to ask a question, that's star one. We will take our next question from Matt LaRue with William Blair. Please go ahead. Hi, this is Madeline Millman on Vermont. Hey, Madeline. Hi, guys. On the net rate, I'm trying to think about how do you expect the net rate to change throughout the year, especially as like sequestration impact rolls off in the second half of the year?

29:31 I think in the past you said you expected it to be kind of roughly flat with the fourth quarter and wanted to see if you were still thinking that way. Yeah, I think for the full year, Madeline, that's where we would still expect to be. You know, we'll grow from where we would expect the rate to move up from here, for sure. I mean, We feel really good about the fact that our net rate was up over the first quarter of the prior year despite that 4% cumulative Medicare rate differential year over year, so that's good. Our commercial rates were up over last year by 3.2% in the first quarter, first quarter to first quarter. They were relatively flat from the fourth quarter to the first quarter, but they're always a little lighter in the first quarter of the year, and then we'll grow from here. I think we're still in good shape from a rate standpoint.

30:16 But we've got a lot of work to do, as we've mentioned. This is not easy work, doing these rate negotiations and pushing for increases. And you'll push for them, you'll get them, but it'll take a little while for them to come into effect. But we're on a good trajectory, I think, Madeline. Great, thank you. And then I think you mentioned last quarter that your group purchasing order was rolling out in February. for your pilot. Any insights from the pilot or takeaways that you can apply as you roll it out more broadly? Yeah, Graham, do you want to take that? Yeah, so we've got it active right now in about 200 locations, and it's really too early yet to give you any analytics feedback on it. That would probably be more at the end of this quarter to the end of third quarter, but we're rolling it out in a systemic fashion, and we're going to continue to do that.

31:13 Great, thank you. Thank you. Here's Madeline. And once again, that's star one for your questions. And it does appear that we have, oh, I do apologize. We do have a question from Mike Petusky with Barrington Research. Please go ahead. Hey, Mike. Good morning, Mike. Good morning. Man, I had pressed star one three times. I'm about to hang up. Anyway, finally got it. Okay. Now that I've learned to operate a phone, let me ask a couple questions. Yeah, me and you both, so we'll both go to phones. That's right, that's right. I'm in very good company. All right, so on rate renegotiations, you know, Chris, you know I'm a baseball fan.

31:58 I mean, in terms of if this is a nine-inning baseball game, how far along are you guys in terms of what you're trying to accomplish there? I mean, we're early in the second inning, I think. Yeah, that's what I think. We're a little farther along than we were nine months ago, so I can't continue to say first inning, but I think we've got a lot of baseball left to go. Considering you called out a 3% up comparison in your commercial rates, that's great that there's still that much left to get after. Well, we have a lot of contracts. We have a lot of partnerships.

32:45 They're individual. They're across a 40-state network. And so it's a lot to get through, and we are still early. So that's a reality, but that just means that we're going to be at this for a longer period of time, and it should have an effect for a while. So I wanted to ask on the revenue that you guys are sort of willing to walk, you know, I know you don't want to, but you're willing to walk away from on certain MA contracts, maybe some other contracts as well. I mean, Kerry, I think you may have alluded to, hey, it'll start to impact second half. I mean, is there any way to sort of think about magnitude?

33:30 I mean, we're talking a few million dollars. We're talking more than that. I mean, what, you know, just from a modeling perspective, I don't want to... Not sort of take that into account. Is there anything you can say to help on that? I mean, they're not big dollars, but there's, I mean, it's, I would say several million, something like that in revenue. But on every one of those dollars, the margin is zero to slightly negative, right? And so I'm absolutely willing to walk away from that. And as Chris has noted and we've talked about, we're going to be able to replace that volume with better paying volume and that'll make a difference.

34:20 But that's all kind of baked into, if you will, into our guidance and kind of our expectations for the year. It takes a little while for the termination notices. Once you provide the termination notice for it to take effect, they're usually about 90 days. That's why I said we'll probably see more impact from that in the second half of the year because we've done that in the first quarter. It'll mostly be in effect by June, July, where we're no longer taking that business. I know you didn't want to predict blue skies for the foreseeable future, but just in terms of what you guys said about April, Would you be willing to share, did patient visits stay, you know, above 30 or near 30 if you have that data?

35:08 Yes. I mean, we've seen, we do weekly visit reports, and it has been, I'd say, Chris, pretty similar to what we saw in March. Above 30. Above 30. Okay. That's fantastic. Outstanding. And then I guess just in terms of your commentary around the injury prevention business, Chris, I mean, does sort of the state of things make it less likely that, you know, you guys might engage in any kind of, you know, M&A in that area? Or does it make it more likely maybe there's some opportunities that open up? Can you just speak to that?

35:54 Yeah, I don't know that I can hand it. It certainly doesn't make us less likely. We love this business. We love the teams. We love what it does. Understand that over the, what, six years that we've had it, we've added to programs and products and services in a pretty considerable way. Some of those are cyclical. Some of those are counter-cyclical. So right now, for instance, and last year even, our testing business, The year that we bought the testing business, which I want to say was 2019, the year we bought that business, testing was slow. Everybody was kind of nervous, and we just asked everybody to hang on.

36:39 We knew that there was going to be some cyclicality with this. Since then, last year and this year, testing's been on fire. Thank you for joining us. We're making some adjustments there to be able to do more things remotely and in people's homes and adjust that business a little bit.

37:25 And nobody can control, you know, when I say nobody, I mean us. We can't control what the Fed does, and we can't control whether this ends up being, you know, a plane that lands softly or a little bit of a harder landing in terms of the economy. and so CEOs and CFOs, they're trying to judge for themselves what that looks like in the coming period. So, you know, people are kind of waiting to see before they make big investments in some cases, particularly newer customers. Existing customers' business has been pretty strong. So we continue to look for, we're having discussions with CEOs Thank you so much for joining us.

38:35 will get it picked back up again, but for right now it's going to be a little slower. Can I just ask real quick on the agreements that you have in place in that business, are they annual renewals or how does that work? Yeah, they're mostly annual renewals, but look, the reality is when things happen and a company that you've had a good relationship with asks you to pause, and I'll give you a great example of this, this beginning of the pandemic situation, We were to roll out a big contract with Uber, and we all know that Uber kind of disappeared that first year in the pandemic. Nobody was out ride-sharing a whole lot. And so we paused it. Now, we had a contract, but it doesn't make sense to force the customer into something that they don't want.

39:32 And so... There's definitely a balance there. These are longer-term contracts, usually annual, but when there are major points of inflection, we tend to defer to the customer and make adjustments accordingly, and that keeps business around for a long time. Now, that Uber story, which got paused at the beginning of 2020, was massive for us in 2021 and 2022. Again, we're trying to do the right thing and trying to be good stewards and And so we have to make adjustments when the customer wants to make adjustments. We may not have to, but we do. That story is a perfect example of why you guys have been as successful as you have the last 20 years. Great job. Thank you.

40:17 Thanks, Mike. Mike. And there are no further questions at this time. I will turn the call back over to the speakers for closing remarks. Okay. Thank you very much. Thanks, everybody, for your time today. Appreciate all the questions. Sorry for my early fumble on the phone. We look forward to talking with you. I know we have some post-call follow-up with some of you. If you have any questions, just give Carrie and I a shout, and we'll be happy to tackle those offline. Thanks and have a great day. Thank you, and this does conclude today's program. Thank you for your participation. You may disconnect at any time.