Eurocell (LSE:ECEL) — Investor Presentation

0:01 Good morning, and welcome to the EUROCELL PLC Investor Presentation. Throughout this recorded presentation, investors will be in listen only mode. Questions are encouraged and can be submitted at any time using the Q and A tab situated on the right hand corner of your screen. Simply type in your questions and press send. The company may not be in a position to answer every question received during the meeting itself. However, the company will review all questions submitted today and publish responses where appropriate to do so. Before we begin, I would like to submit the following poll.

0:31 And I would now like to hand you over to CEO, Mark Kelly. Good morning, sir. Thank you very much, indeed, Alex, and a very warm welcome to everybody from Michael and myself as we take you through the outcome for 2022 and then update you as far as we are able around the scenarios for 2023. I will start by reviewing EUROCELL and its major business units before updating on sustainability and then handing over to Michael who will take you through the detail on the numbers before I close on the outlook. We have two revenue streams, to our business. Firstly, we are the largest supplier of window profile extrusions, which are supplied into a network of independent fabricators. We do not own and have no intention of owning any fabricators ourselves. And that as we do not want ourselves to be set up in competition with our customer base.

1:20 We are mostly RMI based rather than large contract customer, but we are the largest supplier of windows through to through our fabricator base into new build. Secondly, we sell building plastics plus conservatories, garden rooms, skylights, windows, and doors, etcetera, through a wholly owned branch network of 214 branches with capacity to grow further. We thought it'd be useful to detail a few products that have been recently launched and are allowing us to court new customers. Top left is Luma, which is a flat roof skylight. We're able to manufacture one of the largest units in The UK. Bottom left is our rework of the old glass conservatory. It looks very smart and modern. It's very well received by our customers.

2:09 Bottom right is a vertically clad garden room. Again, modern styling enhancing the swimming pool. And just for the record, we do not intend to supply swimming pools. And lastly, at the top right position is our soon to be launched modern extension offering. This can be erected in days rather than the months required for bricks and mortar extensions, and we are anticipating substantive interest. We also have extensive developments agreed through our workshops with the national builders to ensure their compliance with the future homes legislation. The profiles division is where all the manufacturing of our products is undertaken. We then distribute to our fabricated customers and through to our branches from Woodsell. We have sales teams that create demand for our products and therefore sales for our fabricators.

2:57 M and A has been a part of our growth. And to this end, we have purchased a composite and a panel door business called Vista, which sells independently but also through our branch network and direct into some of our new build customers. S and S Plastics makes injection moldings with a real expertise in the fenestration sector, and we purchased a couple of window recycling plants, which now makes us the largest recycler of windows in The UK. I thought it'd be worth reiterating why we believe we can take share. We've been continuing to develop a market leading proposition based around our deep understanding and partnership with our customers whilst ensuring that we have innovative products that meet the specific sector needs, all with the intent to ensure that EUROCELL is the brand of choice.

3:43 As you will be aware, EUROCELL does not own any fabricators, but we work through a considerable increasing base supplying trade, new build, and commercial sectors. Through our sales forces, we work hard to ensure that we develop as many specifications as possible for our fabricators to supply. We run market leading sales teams which drive specifications through the adopt ions of regulations like the future home standards, which require every build to drive down the energy requirement to heat a home. Windows and doors are a major facilitator of this required change. The sales pull through, the product development, the sales teams all means that we have considerably increased our fabricator wins over the last year, doubling the onboarding average for the last five years. As you can see on the right hand side of the slide, this has increased to 29, the new accounts in '22.

4:33 This is very encouraging. We still have a strong pipeline and are working to continue driving our market share, which we estimate at 20%, another 2% gain over 2021. On the next slide, anything with a building that is timber can be replaced with maintenance free UPVC, and this is the product that we sell through the 214 branches within our network. We try to be a one stop shop for our customers and therefore augment the products we make with traded goods like glues, silicons, PBEs, tooling, etcetera, and then with made to order products like warm roofs, conservatories, windows, and doors. Whilst we have made acquisitions of smaller branch networks in the past, we believe this is more profitable for us to grow organically, and this is our preference for the future.

5:25 We still saw strong growth, but a third less than our Profast customers. The branch business is very RMI orientated, and so the turndown in discretionary expenditure hit a little harder here as there are no offsets from contracting or new build business. Additionally, profile customers are locked into us, but that is not the same for branch customers. And when the cyber and ransomware attack happened in July, it is clear that the branch business is more deeply affected and the lag on sales, and therefore, the financial impact was more pronounced in the branch network. We should be clear that whilst impacted in some way through h two, the branches are now performing solidly and appear to be back on track. The significant driver of growth has been price, and sales volumes are slightly down beyond the strike of the strong comparators of 2021.

6:12 Lower volumes and high cost inflation have seen erosion in operating profit, but we have taken steps to address this with price increases in February. Underpinning the branch development is a five point plan as detailed in the left hand column. We continue to maintain our focus on the RMI customer and hone our product and service offerings as appropriate. We have temporarily paused branch openings on the back of a deep dive to define with certainty the best use of invested capital going forward. Based upon the information we already have within our branch network, we want to confirm the size and shape of the branch network openings, and optimize the openings going forward, plus the product portfolio with a view to continuing to demonstrate improving shareholder returns.

7:00 Key to our future growth is our people, and we are working very hard to ensure that EUROCELL is a great, rewarding place to work, a place where anyone can develop a career. Retail labor attrition is uncomfortably high levels, but we have to break the mold. As you will see in the right hand column, we have a number of initiatives to ensure that we reduce labor attrition. The gains are slow, but the price is huge. We know the most successful branches have steady employee base and have developed great relationships and built trust with their customers. As well as driving sales through our installer scheme for roofs and garden rooms, we continue to push for better returns in terms of margin development, asset protection, but also stock optimization. An example being here that a number of our suppliers subject our branches to minimum order quantities or deploy punitive delivery charges.

7:53 This can result in a lack of product availability or overstocks at the branches. We are currently working on a supply led project to hold all of these products centrally, offering us the chance to reduce total stock across our network whilst ensuring full and appropriate availability. We continue to recognize the requirement to be a one stop shop for our clients with off the shelf availability. EUROCELL is the largest recycler of windows in The UK, and this now represents 29% of our requirement for PVC, up from 27% last year and still on track to reach our objective of around 33%. Our use of recyclate save 47,000 tons of carbon when compared to using virgin resin.

8:40 This also comes with a cost advantage. However, we have seen some erosion of the delta between virgin recycled resin, and feedstock prices have increased as competitors look for product in reduced markets. We are working hard to secure the volume we require with contracted volumes. We convert 86% of the material in each window returned to our two sites into reusable products. With new uses for previous waste products, we expect the figure to continue to rise in the coming year. We continue to track and report our progress against an agreed suite of KPIs on sustainability encompassing recycling, emissions, energy utilization reductions, governance, etcetera. We are currently in the process of fitting solar panels to a number of our freehold extrusion sites with the entire output feeding straight into our extruders rather than being fed back into the grid.

9:35 We are focused on key four key themes for the UN sustainable development goals. And as previously mentioned, these are tracked through a number of reported KPIs and are now monitored at a board level by an ESG subcommittee.

9:52 It really was a year of two halves. Half one started excellently, and we were competing very well with tough comparators of the prior year on both volume and price even post the Russian invasion of Ukraine. However, h two was much more difficult. Firstly, with the impact of a cyber attack and then by the reduction in consumer confidence caused by the issues in Ukraine. This was then compounded by the trust Qatang mini budget, which stifled the availability of sensibly priced borrowing. So while sales were up, this was predominantly price as we fought to offset huge cost inflation, particularly on resin, but in h two across all categories of materials and then, of course, latterly energy. With this background in mind, we are pleased to have delivered a solid financial performance.

10:41 We are particularly pleased to have increased contributions from operations as we see the trend line for increased efficiency started to turn upwards while continuing to deliver sector leading leading customer service. With a challenging backdrop, EUROCELL has continued to increase market share in all sectors in which it operates, putting further pressure on its competitors. We continue to use more cycled products as a percentage of our mix and very encouragingly encouragingly are making great strides in increasing the yield from every single window recycled into our two plants. At the tail end of the year, we took action to simplify the business by divesting security hardware, which have failed to grow to a size where it had the necessary scale to compete. With a new supply partner, we continue to access a full suite of products for both the branches and our profile customers, but without the distraction of management time trying to build this business.

11:37 To prepare the business for the challenges we anticipated in 2023, we acted early and took out £5,000,000 worth of additional overheads in the last quarter of two thousand and twenty two. Now I'd like to hand over to Michael to walk you through the finances.

12:01 Thanks, Mark. So let me start by going through the financial highlights on page 11. We delivered a solid financial performance in 2022 against strong '21 comparatives and despite an increasingly challenging backdrop. Revenue was up 12% on 2021 with price the significant driver of growth. Adjusted profit before tax increased by £1,000,000 or 4% compared to 2021. This reflects lower sales volumes, cost control, and the benefits of improving operational efficiency

12:40 as well as the recovery of unprecedented input cost inflation via price increases and surcharges. Although not all cost inflation was fully recovered until early in 2023. It also reflects the impact of the cyber incident in July and August, which I'll say more about in a moment. The adjusted operating profit margin was down 50 basis points at 8.2%, which reflects the dilutive impact of high levels of inflation. Adjusted earnings per share were 21.4p, up 10% on 2021, which includes the benefit of a lower tax rate in 2022. And with a proposed final dividend of 7.2p per share, total dividends of 10.7p, up 11%. Finally, net debt on a pre IFRS 16 basis was 14,400,000 compared to 11,000,000 at the end of twenty twenty one, demonstrating that we have good headroom and liquidity on our bank facilities.

13:32 On that subject, we were very pleased to complete the refinancing of our 75,000,000 sustainable revolving credit facility in May. The new facility is competitively priced with key terms largely unchanged from previous arrangements. Modest adjustments to the margin will be applied based on our performance against annual sustainability targets for recycling emissions reduction and waste minimization. The facility matures in 2026 and includes an option to extend for a further year.

14:03 Moving on to the components of sales growth on page 12. Total sales were up 12% on 2021. This includes 15% from selling price increases and surcharges, recovering very high levels of input cost inflation. However, due to market conditions in the second half, not all of this cost inflation was recovered until early in 2023. Overall, volumes were slightly below a strong comparative period. Profile sales were up 15% with volumes flat, and building plastic sales were up 10% with volumes down 4% or 2% excluding the impact of the cyber incident. In our markets, new build, large contract, and RMI project work were all robust through 2022.

14:50 However, the branch network and trade fabricators experienced a slowdown in smaller discretionary RMI work in H 2. To give you an example of a category that performed very well in the branches last year, Mark spoke about our outdoor living product range earlier, which includes decking, fencing, and garden rooms. Outdoor living sales were substantially higher in 2022 at £12,900,000, up 57% compared to 2021. Finally, on this slide, just a few comments on the cyber incident we experienced towards the end of July. This did cause some temporary disruption and had a financial impact, but it was efficiently resolved with the business remaining operational throughout and trading normally from mid August. We have partially resolved our cyber insurance claim with compensation of 1,100,000 recognized as an underlying item in 2022, primarily for business interruption being lost sales in the branch network.

15:48 Work is ongoing with the with the insurer to resolve the remaining aspects of the claim. And following the incident, we have taken steps to implement further cyber resilience and security measures. Onto adjusted operating profit on page 13. Profit of 31,300,000 represents an increase of 1,600,000 or 5% on a strong 2021 comparative. Looking at the detail and moving left to right across the chart, the volume price cost in cyber category recognizes that sales volumes were down on 2021. Selling prices and surcharges were implemented throughout the year to recover high input cost inflation. But as I said earlier, due to market conditions in the second half, not all cost inflation was fully recovered until early in 2023.

16:40 I've also highlighted the adverse financial impact of the cyber incident with our business interruption insurance claim only partially resolved at this time. Moving along the chart, variable labor costs have fallen due to lower bonuses and share based payments charges. It is pleasing to see that operating efficiency efficiencies are now being delivered, reflecting the benefit of our recent investments in manufacturing and warehousing capacity, which have facilitated a more efficient operation and the delivery of much improved customer service. Bad debts were a net credit in 2021 compared to a small charge in '22. Continuing left to right, as you know, we mitigate raw material cost increases by using recycled material. The chart shows a neutral position with the absolute volume of recycled material used and the cost delta with virgin material broadly flat with 2021.

17:34 Looking beyond the chart, last year serves to illustrate the attractive economics of recycling, particularly when resin prices are high. The 16,700 tons of recycled compound we consumed in 2022 delivered a significant absolute gross margin benefit of approximately 10,000,000 compared to the alternative cost of using virgin material, demonstrating recycling's effectiveness as a hedge against high resin prices. New branches show a small improvement, reflecting that the 12 branches opened in 2021 are progressing well towards breakeven. And finally, as I mentioned earlier, depreciation has increased in line with investment in operating capacity. Overall, this is a solid financial performance against an increasingly challenging backdrop and strong 2021 comparatives.

18:26 Moving on to CapEx on page 14. The chart and tables illustrate the significant investments we've made over the last five years to build out the infrastructure required to resolve operational constraints and support strong sales growth. Our operating capacity is now more than 40% ahead of where it was in 2018. As a result, we have the manufacturing, recycling, and warehousing capacity in place well ahead of demand, which is supporting the delivery of improved operating efficiencies. We're also future proofed to the extent that we still have space for at least another 10 extruders, which could be added progressively over time if required.

19:06 CapEx for 2022 was 12,300,000 with approximately 4,000,000 to substantially complete the manufacturing capacity expansion, and £2,000,000 on IT infrastructure improvements, including measures to improve cyber resilience such as the replacement of our on-site service, as well as a new website and ecommerce solution and a new HR information system, both of which will be launched later in 2023. The remaining spend of £6,000,000 includes critical spares for recycling, branch refurbishments, solar panels for our primary manufacturing sites, and general maintenance CapEx. Our guidance for 2023 is for total CapEx of approximately £10,000,000. This includes maintenance CapEx as well as the start of a program to develop our IT infrastructure.

19:58 Our existing ERP system will be unsupported by SAP after 2027. We also believe that its age profile has become a limiting factor in the development of our business. The current system was implemented in 2006 when the group had only a small branch operation and no recycling. We are therefore starting a project to upgrade or replace SAP with the principal tasks for 2023 being scoping and system selection. Thereafter, we anticipate an implementation to be a two to three year process. And whilst it is very early days, we estimate the total capital cost of the project will be in the region of 6 to £8,000,000 over that period. Overall, with our investments to expand operating capacity now complete, our focus for 2023 remains on delivering improved operating efficiencies from the new facilities as well as scoping out the SAP upgrade project.

20:56 So to sum up on page 15, we delivered a solid financial performance for 2022 against strong '21 comparatives and in the face of an increasingly challenging backdrop to the second half. Sales growth of 12% was driven by price. Profits up 4% reflects lower volumes, cost control, operational efficiencies, and the recovery of significant input cost inflation.

21:20 Profits were also impacted by a cyber incident in the summer. We have continued to invest in business growth and operational resilience with our with our capacity expansion now substantially complete and the start of a program to develop our IT infrastructure. Our debt is low, and we have good liquidity on our recently refinanced bank facility. And we have acted swiftly on cost to prepare the business for the year ahead. Finally, to the right of this slide, there's a summary of our 2023 technical financial guidance, which I hope is helpful. Helpful. And with that, back to Mark to cover the outlook. Thank you, Michael. We've put a summary slide together, which makes the case for why you will we will continue to be successful and outperform our competitors.

22:17 We will continue to focus on those sectors where we and our customers can make money and where we can differentiate our offerings, private RMI, new build, and commercial. We do not cater for direct supply to large contractors or contracts. The CPA forecast detailed in the right column speak for themselves, but we continue to focus on taking share and readying the business for the return to normalized trading forecast for 2024. We will drive our share by ensuring that we optimize our product and service propositions for the markets we serve and wherever possible generate tight specifications for our products. Our understanding of the future homes legislation and product solutions will continue to drive share into both the national and regional house builders, and we will link our Vista Composite door products wherever possible.

23:09 We are focused on reducing employee churn in the branches, and this combined with great product availability and range will secure the growth and share we require whilst we work to establish the shape, format, and footprint of future branches in the estate. Recycling continues to be a key part of our offering and is a very valuable differentiating factor for both the sustainability and a financial point of view. With a challenging backdrop, it was important to reduce overheads, but it is also imperative that the early green shoots of further efficiencies in manufacturing continue to flourish and drive value through to the bottom line. We are confident that this will happen, the market share gains will produce attractive returns over time.

23:55 In summary, we got there in 2022, but it wasn't easy, and the market backdrop is tough. We are recovering inflationary costs. We've had to be empathetic to our customers' ability to pass them through. However, we are starting to see increased stability in raw material pricing. Operational efficiency gains will really kick in in through 2023. However, not at the expense of the quality of our service, which will continue to allow us to take share both with fabricators and within the branch business. Everything continues to be underpinned by growing our recycling operations as we prepare for further share gains throughout our business in 2023. We expect effective deployment of our strategy to enable us to optimize our performance in our markets.

24:43 Thank you very much for your time and interest this morning. I'd now I'd now like to open the lines through Alex for any questions. Thank you, Alex. That's great, Mark, Michael. Thank you very much indeed for your presentation this morning. And if may now bring your cameras back up. Ladies and gentlemen, please continue to submit your questions using the Q and A tab situated on the top right corner of your screen. While the company take a few moments to review those questions submitted today, I would like to remind you that a recording of this presentation along with a copy of the slides and the published Q and A can be accessed via investor dashboard. Mark, Michael, as you can see, we have received a number of questions throughout today's presentation. And if I may hand over back to you and ask you to read out the questions and give responses where appropriate to do so. And I'll pick up from you both at the end. Thank you.

25:33 Alex, we've got slight technical hitches, but we can't see any questions at this end. You, on the q and a you can't see the q and a tab? Well, we see the q and a tab, but we can't see any questions there. Oh, would you like me to read them out for you? Yes. That would be great. Thank you. Perfect. So the first question comes from Matthew. What is the strategy for winning new fabrication clients? So, Matthew, thank you very much indeed for your question. The strategy there is that the sales teams generate an awful lot of specifications, and, that creates demand. A number of fabricators, competitive fabricators are seeing a reduction in demand, particularly around discretionary expenditure at the moment. And so we've been able to have conversations with those fabricators about filling their order books with tight specifications from EUROCELL.

26:26 When you take that tight specification to them and and you realize they've got a volume shortfall, they in order to satisfy the EUROCELL specifications, they would have to swap over all of their products to us, And and that's the way that we've been growing. So, also, in this market of tight cost and price increases going through, we often get competitive fabricators ring us up and ask us to do some comparative pricing. What we'd like to do then is get them down to our showrooms, get them down to see our new warehouse, etcetera. And when they get down there, it begs the question about whether they're really with the right long term supply partners. So and that allows us to open up the conversation again and make a compelling offering to them. Hope that answers your question, Matthew. Alex, we can now see the questions. So they're they're what they're coming through. So thank you very much indeed for that.

27:27 From question from John w, who are our main competitors. In the branch network, John, that would be, ECELIN, another PLC, and also, Gap, general purpose plastics. There's also a lot of independence there. About 60% of the marketplace is small independence. In the profiles business, again, would be up there, Vika, a number of European, quite a few of them privately owned businesses, who the market is quite, fractured. There's not a lot of consolidation that's happened. So lots of opportunities there. Sorry. The, next question is what are the main drivers between your ability to gain market share? I think we've talked a little bit about that. How much is offering more competitive prices a factor in gaining market share in the marketplace?

28:31 We need to be keenly we need to be competitively priced, but what we don't think we need to be is the lowest price in the marketplace. We would like to consider ourselves to have the lowest cost in the marketplace. That is when you're dealing with EUROCELL because in the branch network, you have a one stop shop where you can buy all of the products you need. Maybe you'll pay a slightly higher price for that service rather than having to go around a number of different branches to get all of your products. In the profiles business, we believe that having a lot of pull through tight specifications for our product, offerings that optimize around future homes legislation all mean that we have a compelling offering for which we can charge a premium. So, we need to be kingly priced, but much more very cost competitive.

29:22 Are you the market leader in roofline products is the next question. Now given your 25% market share, can you talk more about what you're seeing regarding the demand for roofline products? We are not the leader in, roofline products. Are the leader in roofline products, which I believe somewhere around 40% market share. And the reason for that is because ECELIN, undertake a lot of contract work to major house builders and social housing programs, which we don't tend to do. We are very much focused on RMI. That is the small builder, the small tradesman's, roofline installer, window installers. So, as regarding demand, we've seen, we're outperforming the CPA at the moment probably by two percentage points. So CPA thought the RMI market would come up by 9%.

30:16 We're probably seeing it off at about 7% at the moment. We are seeing discretionary expenditure not holding up at the moment. So what we're seeing is more project work than small type jobs. But but the weather's been a little bit tricky, so it it's starting to come back in, March, and we would hope to see further demand grow through April. Tom has asked the question. Michael, do you wanna take this one? Do you anticipate any legal claims from employees who lost data during the cyberattack? We do not expect anything significant, and I think it's important to say that we put a significant amount of protection in place for our employees to protect them from identity theft or credit theft. So, no, I don't expect anything significant there.

31:12 Why try to increase market share if your margins are declining? Margins declined due to the dilutive impact of inflation. To give you some context to that, inflation reduced our gross margin overall by about 4% last year and hit EBIT margin by about a 100 basis points. We are covering the pound notes impact of that inflation with selling price increases and surcharges. Market share gains give us absolute improvements in in, in profitability, and those are particularly useful at a time when markets are weak. The share gains that we're taking now will also leave us in very good a very good possession, position when markets recover, whenever that might be.

31:58 We've got a question here. Can you talk about your outdoor living range? Are these fabricated by third parties using your products? What kind of margins do you make on these products? Well, we have decking products. We have garden room products. We have conservatory products. They are mostly fabricated by third party using our products. Our products are normally, if you'd say garden room, 70% of the total range. The decking products, we import. We don't extrude those. They are wood, PVC composites, and that's not our specialty in extrusion. The the margins, I'm not gonna give you specific margins on those products, but it's a part of the basket of margin that, makes up the, branch sales, the, the branch network sales.

32:47 How much staff turnover are you experiencing? In the retail market at the moment, most, companies are seeing up to 50% churn. We are appreciably below that, but it's not where we want it to be. And we are taking great strides in terms of inductions, in terms of training, career development, and bonuses schemes to make sure that we continue driving down the staff turnover. It's particularly with counter staff and drivers where we're seeing the most fluctuation, And we need to give those guys, we we need to make our business more attractive to them and businesses that they will stay with. Does your focus on RMI leave you more vulnerable in the downturn? An interesting question. I think everybody is impacted by what's going on at the moment. There's no doubt that consumer confidence particularly impacts RMI sales.

33:44 But there are some interesting market dynamics going on at the moment, which is that for any of you guys or girls that have applied for planning permission, which should be coming through in four weeks, you'll be noticing that it's taking somewhere between fourteen and sixteen weeks at the moment. So if you've got your heart wedded to the idea that you're gonna be extending your property or improving it in that way, when the planning permission comes through, you're probably likely to get on with your job. And that's what we're seeing right at this moment. Most of you will know that we run a a feature, a big promotional feature for made to order products called a cash back day. And we give take that as an indicator of how the market is faring right at this mode. And whilst January wasn't brilliant, February and March have seen very large cashback days, which indicates to me that our customers are they're buying them project type work, you know, conservatories, windows, and the such like warm roofs.

34:44 And that indicates to me that the market is whilst not buoyant, it's still robust, and it's still holding up. So I don't think our focus on RMI leaves us vulnerable in the downturn. It just means that we're having to work harder and do a better job for our customers. Alex, that appears to be all the questions that we can see at this time. Yes, Mark. That's great. Thank you for that. And I believe you have addressed all the questions that you can from investors today. And, of course, the company will review all questions submitted today, and we will publish those responses on the Investor Meet company platform. But perhaps before redirecting investors to provide you with their feedback, which I know is particularly important to you and the company, Mark, could I please ask you for a few closing comments? Thank you. Yes. Thank you very much indeed, Alex. Look.

35:30 2022 was a tough year for reasons which were, you know, out of our control and are common to everybody, particularly the Ukraine war, and and certainly the lack of availability of money for people transacting on houses. We are seeing, you know, RMI housing transactions come down at the moment, but we are seeing a lot of improvement of properties. And we are seeing despite the gloom that was put out by the new house builders pre the budget, we are seeing conversion rates and new builds starting to pick up. And the new legislation around the future homes is very complex, not just to do with energy savings, but it definitely involves windows and the technical application of those windows. And we are starting to see indicators that new build conversions are picking up strongly.

36:18 So whilst we're not expecting 2023 to be a stellar year, we are expecting 2023 to be a year where we can take market share, drive operational efficiencies, and then be in a great place as the market returns in '24 and '25. Again, I would like to thank you very much indeed for your attentions and, and your time during this presentation. And if there's any more questions, please, get them submitted to us, and we'll get back to you. In the meantime, thank you very much indeed for your support. Thank That's great. Mark and Michael as well, thank you once again for updating investors today. Could I please ask investors not to close this session as you will now be automatically redirected to provide your feedback in order that the management team can better understand your views and expectations.

37:05 This will only take a few moments to complete, and I'm sure will be great greatly valued by the company. On behalf of the management team of EUROCELL PLC, we would like to thank you for attending today's presentation. That concludes today's meeting. Good morning to you all.